Goose Saver shared her photo.
June 12
Sometimes all we do is conceptual grasping and clinging with our deluded minds like pots and pans dangling from a pot rack in the ceiling. And as a wind approaches, all we get is----BANG! We are like a gosling trying to fly with undeveloped wings.
We hear of reference to what seems to be three different approaches: Madhyamaka, Mahamudra, and Mahasandhi or Dzogchen. HH Dalai Lama has a nice way of explaining it. All three have a common root, what might be called the root yana or Fundamental Vehicle. This involves recognition that all suffering has a root in the mind, in the mind of the individual being experiencing the suffering. When we begin to examine our minds as well as the other elements in our make-up, we can again determine, both intellectually and eventually through direct experience that mind per se is not a thing in and of itself. When we are discussing mind we are not discussing some single entity. What we are discussing has no origin, no cessation, and cannot be localized or described in ordinary conceptual terms. This examination, this kind of analysis, is known as the cultivation of prajna or wisdom, and aims to arrive at a deeper insight and wisdom into the nature of reality. With a deep state of meditative absorption the mind can settle into a state of calm. Then as a supportive element in our practice, there is the training in sila—ethics, morality, and discipline. HH Dalai Lama gives us the example of a gardener planting a bush. If the gardener wants the bush to grow healthy and strong, he will place a fence or barrier around the bush to protect it from damage. In the same way, the various levels of ordination, all the moral codes, disciplines, and ethical systems of Buddhism provide the protective and supportive environment for our wisdom and meditation to develop. These three higher trainings of wisdom, meditation, and ethics constitute the Fundamental Vehicle of Buddhism and underlie all the different approaches and yanas of Buddhism.
As we examine all the different elements of our experience, all the phenomena in the world around us, we begin to understand that not only does the individual personality lack any true self-nature, but also in the same way each and every phenomenon are empty. Awe, the big word—emptiness— that pervades not only our own individual ego or sense of self, but the whole of reality dawns upon us. This is what is referred to as the Madhyamaka approach or philosophy of the Middle Way. Now above and beyond that, there are the understandings that not only are all phenomena in samsara and nirvana, essentially empty or devoid of self-nature, but also the root of all these phenomena, the source from which they all spring, is the mind. This ties in more with the Mahamudra approach, and it is slightly more profound. Madhyamaka and Mahamudra are examining the same thing from different points of view, and the Mahamudra approach tends to go one step further.
The next, and final step after that is to determine where that mind comes from—the ground of being from which the ordinary, samsaric mind emerges, the mother that gives birth to the child of ordinary mind. This discovery of a self-arising state of primordial awareness, one that goes beyond ordinary, conceptual thought, is that with which the approach of Mahasandhi or Dzogchen is concerned. This final step, from the Dzogchen point of view is to discover the ground of being from which the mind arises and why great emphasis is placed on Preliminary Practices, or Ngondro. This ground of being is often personified as the Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra or Kuntuzangpo. In Zen, where everything seems to be a grunt or gesture, the floor is hit to indicate this state or ground of Primordial Being. The Tibetans have names for everything— isn’t that wonderful!! Clarity with words, and the clarity of no words that point to the heart essence of the Great Perfection.
Sometimes all we do is conceptual grasping and clinging with our deluded minds like pots and pans dangling from a pot rack in the ceiling. And as a wind approaches, all we get is----BANG! We are like a gosling trying to fly with undeveloped wings. We hear of reference to what seems to be three different approaches: Madhyamaka, Mahamudra, and Mahasandhi or Dzogchen. HH Dalai Lama has a nice way of explaining it. All three have a common root, what might be called the root yana or Fundamental Vehicle. This involves recognition that all suffering has a root in the mind, in the mind of the individual being experiencing the suffering. When we begin to examine our minds as well as the other elements in our make-up, we can again determine, both intellectually and eventually through direct experience that mind per se is not a thing in and of itself. When we are discussing mind we are not discussing some single entity. What we are discussing has no origin, no cessation, and cannot be localized or described in ordinary conceptual terms. This examination, this kind of analysis, is known as the cultivation of prajna or wisdom, and aims to arrive at a deeper insight and wisdom into the nature of reality. With a deep state of meditative absorption the mind can settle into a state of calm. Then as a supportive element in our practice, there is the training in sila—ethics, morality, and discipline. HH Dalai Lama gives us the example of a gardener planting a bush. If the gardener wants the bush to grow healthy and strong, he will place a fence or barrier around the bush to protect it from damage. In the same way, the various levels of ordination, all the moral codes, disciplines, and ethical systems of Buddhism provide the protective and supportive environment for our wisdom and meditation to develop. These three higher trainings of wisdom, meditation, and ethics constitute the Fundamental Vehicle of Buddhism and underlie all the different approaches and yanas of Buddhism. As we examine all the different elements of our experience, all the phenomena in the world around us, we begin to understand that not only does the individual personality lack any true self-nature, but also in the same way each and every phenomenon are empty. Awe, the big word—emptiness— that pervades not only our own individual ego or sense of self, but the whole of reality dawns upon us. This is what is referred to as the Madhyamaka approach or philosophy of the Middle Way. Now above and beyond that, there are the understandings that not only are all phenomena in samsara and nirvana, essentially empty or devoid of self-nature, but also the root of all these phenomena, the source from which they all spring, is the mind. This ties in more with the Mahamudra approach, and it is slightly more profound. Madhyamaka and Mahamudra are examining the same thing from different points of view, and the Mahamudra approach tends to go one step further. The next, and final step after that is to determine where that mind comes from—the ground of being from which the ordinary, samsaric mind emerges, the mother that gives birth to the child of ordinary mind. This discovery of a self-arising state of primordial awareness, one that goes beyond ordinary, conceptual thought, is that with which the approach of Mahasandhi or Dzogchen is concerned. This final step, from the Dzogchen point of view is to discover the ground of being from which the mind arises and why great emphasis is placed on Preliminary Practices, or Ngondro. This ground of being is often personified as the Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra or Kuntuzangpo. In Zen, where everything seems to be a grunt or gesture, the floor is hit to indicate this state or ground of Primordial Being. The Tibetans have names for everything— isn’t that wonderful!! Clarity with words, and the clarity of no words that point to the heart essence of the Great Perfection.
Goose Saver
Sometimes all we do is conceptual grasping and clinging with our deluded minds like pots and pans dangling from a pot rack in the ceiling. And as a wind approaches, all we get is----BANG! We are like a gosling trying to fly with undeveloped wings.
We hear of reference to what seems to be three different approaches: Madhyamaka, Mahamudra, and Mahasandhi or Dzogchen. HH Dalai Lama has a nice way of explaining it. All three have a common root, what might be called the root yana or Fundamental Vehicle. This involves recognition that all suffering has a root in the mind, in the mind of the individual being experiencing the suffering. When we begin to examine our minds as well as the other elements in our make-up, we can again determine, both intellectually and eventually through direct experience that mind per se is not a thing in and of itself. When we are discussing mind we are not discussing some single entity. What we are discussing has no origin, no cessation, and cannot be localized or described in ordinary conceptual terms. This examination, this kind of analysis, is known as the cultivation of prajna or wisdom, and aims to arrive at a deeper insight and wisdom into the nature of reality. With a deep state of meditative absorption the mind can settle into a state of calm. Then as a supportive element in our practice, there is the training in sila—ethics, morality, and discipline. HH Dalai Lama gives us the example of a gardener planting a bush. If the gardener wants the bush to grow healthy and strong, he will place a fence or barrier around the bush to protect it from damage. In the same way, the various levels of ordination, all the moral codes, disciplines, and ethical systems of Buddhism provide the protective and supportive environment for our wisdom and meditation to develop. These three higher trainings of wisdom, meditation, and ethics constitute the Fundamental Vehicle of Buddhism and underlie all the different approaches and yanas of Buddhism.
As we examine all the different elements of our experience, all the phenomena in the world around us, we begin to understand that not only does the individual personality lack any true self-nature, but also in the same way each and every phenomenon are empty. Awe, the big word—emptiness— that pervades not only our own individual ego or sense of self, but the whole of reality dawns upon us. This is what is referred to as the Madhyamaka approach or philosophy of the Middle Way. Now above and beyond that, there are the understandings that not only are all phenomena in samsara and nirvana, essentially empty or devoid of self-nature, but also the root of all these phenomena, the source from which they all spring, is the mind. This ties in more with the Mahamudra approach, and it is slightly more profound. Madhyamaka and Mahamudra are examining the same thing from different points of view, and the Mahamudra approach tends to go one step further.
The next, and final step after that is to determine where that mind comes from—the ground of being from which the ordinary, samsaric mind emerges, the mother that gives birth to the child of ordinary mind. This discovery of a self-arising state of primordial awareness, one that goes beyond ordinary, conceptual thought, is that with which the approach of Mahasandhi or Dzogchen is concerned. This final step, from the Dzogchen point of view is to discover the ground of being from which the mind arises and why great emphasis is placed on Preliminary Practices, or Ngondro. This ground of being is often personified as the Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra or Kuntuzangpo. In Zen, where everything seems to be a grunt or gesture, the floor is hit to indicate this state or ground of Primordial Being. The Tibetans have names for everything— isn’t that wonderful!! Clarity with words, and the clarity of no words that point to the heart essence of the Great Perfection.
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Joel Agee, Stuffs RedTurtle, Viorica Doina Neacsu and 7 others like this.
Anzelle Pieretti It's also known as Ati
June 12 at 10:31am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon Technically there is no term in Dzogchen for 'ground of being'. Ground of being is sort of a western translational gloss gone awry. Being in general is a conditioned extreme in the eyes of the buddhadharma.
June 12 at 10:36am · Like
Dannon Flynn Tell it to the Dalai Lama.
June 12 at 10:52am · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon Whether he wrote it or not, it's a common mistranslation of the Tibetan term 'gzhi', which never means 'ground' or 'ground of being'.
'Base' or 'basis' are more accurate, because that species of recognition is the basis for the path. Not an ontological ground.
June 12 at 11:04am · Like
Goose Saver Kyle, the terms were translated by Geshe Thupten Jinpa and Richard Barron (Chokyi Nyima).
June 12 at 11:28am · Like
Kyle Dixon Ah, yeah Barron translates gzhi as ground of being. I do like his translations though overall.
June 12 at 11:37am · Like · 1
Goose Saver In his rendering of the Nelug Dzö of Longchenpa (1308–1364 or possibly 1369).
June 12 at 11:48am · Like
Soh Hi Goose, your writing suggests that realizing that pristine awareness is the final step in Dzogchen and Mahamudra. While this may be the case for certain types of people, it is my experience, as well as many others in this group, that we realized that pristine awareness first before realizing anatta and emptiness (not just an intellectual understanding of anatta and emptiness but coming to direct realization of it). It is quite common to find people who have direct realization of unfabricated awareness/clarity, it is much more rare to find people who have direct realization of emptiness (twofold) or even anatta (firstfold). (Also have you read this before, I think you had, as this pretty much sums up my path and many others here: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html - our path begins with the realization of unfabricated awareness)
As Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm have said before, in the Dzogchen path, the initial recognition of rigpa is simply the initial recognition of unfabricated clarity - which is necessary to even begin to practice Dzogchen, while the realization of emptiness occurs at a later stage such as the 3rd vision of thodgal.
Awakening to Reality: Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
I understand very little of what Thusness has said. The path that Thusness descr... See More
June 12 at 11:54am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Soh The reason why all these realizations are necessary for us after realization of Awareness is that one must be cleansed of views of duality and inherency pertaining to Awareness. An issue is whether we are having a dualistic and inherent understanding of Awareness - this leads to all kinds of grasping, clinging, subsuming, efforting.
The whole 'ground of being' and manifestation being 'expressions of the ground of being' may be understood dualistically like in the case of I AMness (which is seen as the ultimate and unaffected source and substratum behind all phenomena).
Now regardless of Jax's sometimes extreme views (getting better day by day however), I think he wrote something nicely recently:
Brian Zey wrote: Content is awareness expressed. So all is awareness. 4 hrs · Like
Jackson Peterson wrote: Brian Zey, but content IS awareness. Not its expression. All phenomena are: 1. Empty 2. Cognitive presence 3. Energetic formations; all three at the same time as one Reality. 2 hrs · Like · 2
June 12 at 12:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
Si M Ba blat blat blat--whack whack whack--honk honk honk. What remains is Compassion and its flowering, Wisdom, which is kindness.
June 12 at 12:08pm · Edited · Like · 3
Soh Another thing is that this 'pure awareness' is realized in all religious traditions. If Buddha were only to teach about this then there not even be a need for Buddha at all. The upanishads would suffice. However, his refutation of an ultimate self is the collateral damage as Malcolm puts it, that is what distinguishes him from all other teachings. 'Awareness teaching' is not the main import of his view and message... what he really wants to teach us is anatta and emptiness/non-arising, as that is what liberates. That is - the true, empty nature of Awareness.
June 12 at 12:11pm · Like · 4
Dannon Flynn There is this phenomenon of folks who no matter what is said, no matter who says it, sing the same song, as if we haven't heard it before. But even so, I appreciate them for doing so, it is important. Yet, it sometimes takes away from the OP, but for others, it is helpful. So, carry on. Basis, Ground of Being, all are words. Translations, each one of us translates what each other one says.
June 12 at 12:17pm · Like
Dannon Flynn And how the caste system sucks, Methinks Buddha taught that.
June 12 at 12:20pm · Like
Goose Saver "To summarize, the source of suffering in our experience is our clinging to or misapprehension of mind and body in terms of some kind of self or ego. Through practice, we arrive at the realization of non-self, the lack of self-nature of mind and body. Then, in the Madhyamaka approach, we realize the emptiness of all phenomena, not just the mind and body of the individual….The next step is to discover mind as the source of all these phenomena and to realize the nature of that mind. The final step, from the Dzogchen point of view, is to discover the ground of being [gzhi] from which mind arises." HHDalai Lama
June 12 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
Soh I highly doubt that 'gzhi' actually means 'Awareness'. As realizing that is very, very common indeed, and is not the liberating factor.
I put the order like this (based on personal experience): first, realize Awareness, then realize non-duality of subject and object, then realize emptiness of self (anatta), then realize twofold emptiness. All are understood from Awareness - that is, the nature and essence of Awareness.
June 12 at 12:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti The teaching about the reversal of ordinary fixation sounds good to me right about now.
June 12 at 12:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
Soh In one of his talks, the Dalai Lama also said that recognition of clarity is very common - even among Hindus, etc, but the Buddhist sort of enlightenment is not just that
June 12 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon Posted this before too, but here is Malcolm commenting on the use of 'ground of being' in Dzogchen:
Malcolm wrote:
Again, if you are using the term of "ground of being", which is Christian theological term out of place in Dzogchen, you will run into many contradictions.
Jeeprs wrote:
Interestingly, there is a Wikipedia article called Ground of Being (Dzog'chen) (albeit with a caveat.)
Malcolm wrote:
The article you mentioned is a mess. First of all, the term that gzhi translates is sthana, not asraya. It just turns into a muddle from there.
In terms of the origins of the term, it was indeed coined by Tillich to show that "God must be called the infinite power of being which resists the threat of nonbeing." [Systematic Theology, Vol. pg. 64] You can see why such borrowing is tempting, "The ground of being has the character of self-manifestation; it has logos character" [Systematic Theology, Vol.1 pg. 158]
A large problem for people who are approaching Dzogchen is that they fall back into classical western philosophical categories. Indeed, Günther wrote once that Dzogchen essentially is not different than Parmenides's theory that whatever was contingent as non-being and whatever is permanent is being. Tillich writes:
"The Orphics, the Pythagoreans, Anaximander, Heraclitus, and Parmenides were driven to their philosophy by the awareness that the world they encountered lack ultimate reality. But only in Plato does the contrast between existential and the essential being become an ontological and ethical problem. Existence for Plato is the realm of mere opinion, error, and evil. It lacks true reality. True being is essential being and is present in the realm of eternal ideas, i.e., in essences. In order to reach essential being, man must rise above existence. He must return to the essential realm from which he fell into existence, In this way man's existence, is standing out of potentiality, is judged as a fall from what he essentially is. The potential is the essential, and to exist, i.e., to stand out of potentiality, is the lost of true essentiuality...In God there is no difference between essential and existential being. This implies the split is not ultimately valid and that is has no relevance for the ground of being itself. God is eternally what he is. [Systematic Theology, Vol.2 ppg. 21-22]
Examining this kind of presentation that the term "ground of being" arose out of, it is easy to see why those who are not trained in Indo-Tibetan scholastics as well as Western Philosophy will be very attracted to terms like "ground of being" relationship to the term "basis" or gzhi.
The gzhi is strictly defined as lacking any essence, any svabhava, in Dzogchen texts. Indeed its potentiality is made possible because of its empty nature. Without that coreless core, the processes of the basis by which the five lights shine out and so on are simply not possible. Emptiness, naturelessness, the absence of being, the absence of reality, the absence of extremes is precisely what makes the basis originally pure. As the sgra thal gyur tantra states:
"Since there is no basis or foundation, dwell in emptiness."
The commentary merely notes that this line confirms the quality of the non-existence of one's mind.
And further it states:
"Due to being free from extremes, the middle does not exist."
June 12 at 12:24pm · Like · 3
Anzelle Pieretti How about just connecting to the energy without all this big words which seem to just confuse ppl?
June 12 at 12:27pm · Like · 6
Brian Zey Anzelle Pieretti, here, here!!!
June 12 at 12:45pm · Like · 3
Goose Saver We are here. And thank you all for the inexhaustible good humor!
June 12 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
Brian Zey You are there, I'm here. If you were here I wouldn't alone in this room.
June 12 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti I think ppl are attached to their confusion, haha . .
June 12 at 12:50pm · Like · 3
Anzelle Pieretti It's the cosmic joke of the universe
June 12 at 12:51pm · Like · 2
Brian Zey My confusion is the only thing that is inherently existing, as far as I can tell.
June 12 at 12:51pm · Like · 3
Dannon Flynn But for those b
June 12 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
Dannon Flynn oops.. But for those not trained in Buddhist or Western theology or philosophy, are their such problems with words? Scholars always have such problems... And yet, yogis like me rely on such scholars. But only until we need to let them go and look into our own experience.
June 12 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti It's OK to forget the Dharma made of concepts.
June 12 at 1:25pm · Like · 3
Si M Ba Since all phenomena are actually non-arisings, best to live simply, Compassionately, with as few needs as possible. Art is long but life is short. What point is there in realizing non-self if one remains an asshole, talking talking propping up one's story? it seems to me that ego-dog has many tricks it plays for its bone of substance and it loves to build for itself an ego-dog, dog house made of words; especially terminology. lots to bark about there. So much energy to expend running in circles chasing its own tail. And that bone! So juicy once it splinters and ego-dog can savour its own blood while it chews away. So, how does one explain all this wisdom to a hurt child? With kindness. How does one do Phowa for someone with no back ground in Buddhism? With Love. Talk and debate are endless. Ego-dog loves to roll in that shit. At the end of the day though, all phenomena remain non-arisings and the only thing left to do is be kind.
June 12 at 1:29pm · Like · 4
Dannon Flynn Don't forget though that they do have a good point, even though it begins to sound like barking. They are speaking to practitioners. We can speak to the children if they can't, but only if we understand what we are talking about.
June 12 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
Marta Wrona 'What point is there in realizing non-self if one remains an asshole' would such scenario be even possible when realization depends on merit?
June 12 at 1:57pm · Like · 3
Anzelle Pieretti Assholes get to reincarnate as rats
June 12 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
Goose Saver Yes, one can experience emptiness and remain this or that, and one can gain powers of omniscience but never gain Enlightenment. This is why we do preliminary practices over and over and over again.
June 12 at 2:05pm · Like · 3
Dannon Flynn Good Goose!
June 12 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
Goose Saver To insult me--oh crap--who cares I'll just go flapping in the ocean waves. But to insult HHDL with quotes from Thusness or suchness is pure stupidity.
June 12 at 2:10pm · Like · 3
Soh Strange Goose Saver that you seem to suggest quoting from 'Thusnes' is an insult to HHDL. As I pointed out earlier, HHDL clearly distinguished the realization of clarity/awareness from the realization of emptiness. In one of the youtube videos he clearly stated that realizing this awareness/clarity is commonly found, even among Hindus, but the Buddhist realization is not just that. He considers the realization of the clarity aspect of mind to be merely the 'relative nature of mind', while realizing its emptiness is to realize the ultimate nature of mind.
Plus, it is not just 'Thusness' who went through this process - far from it. Many of us, including myself, and so many others here have gone through the same process. I could have just as easily quoted myself. We can say from our personal experience that realizing Awareness is only the first step and by no means the final realization. Emptiness and no-self is a much subtler realization.
June 12 at 2:38pm · Edited · Like · 4
Anzelle Pieretti It's OK to forget the Dharma that's just a heavy load.
June 12 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
Soh HHDL:
http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=413
We surely do possess some thing called mind, but how are we to recognize its existence? The real and essential mind is what is to be found when the entire load of gross obstructions and aberrations (i.e. sense impressions, memories, etc.) has been cleared away. Discerning this aspect of real mind, we shall discover that, unlike external objects, its true nature is devoid of form or color; nor can we find any basis of truth for such false and deceptive notions as that mind originated from this or that, or that it will move from here to there, or that it is located in such-and-such a place. When it comes into contact with no object mind is like a vast, boundless void, or like a serene, illimitable ocean. When it encounters an object it at once has cognizance of it, like a mirror instantly reflecting a person who stands in front of it. The true nature of mind consists not only in taking clear cognizance of the object but also in communicating a concrete experience of that object to the one experiencing it.* Normally, our forms of sense cognition, such as eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc., perform their functions on external phenomena in a manner involving gross distortion. Knowledge resulting from sense cognition, being based on gross external phenomena, is also of a gross nature. When this type of gross stimulation is shut out, and when concrete experiences and clear cognizance arise from within, mind assumes the characteristics of infinite void similar to the infinitude of space. But this void is not to be taken as the true nature of mind. We have become so habituated to consciousness of the form and color of gross objects that, when we make concentrated introspection into the nature of mind, it is, as I have said, found to be a vast, limitless void free from any gross obscurity or other hindrances. Nevertheless, this does not mean that we have discerned the subtle, true nature of the mind. What has been explained above concerns the state of mind in relation to the concrete experience and clear cognizance by the mind which are its function, but it describes only the relative nature of mind.
There are in addition several other aspects and states of mind. In other words, taking mind as the supreme basis, there are many attributes related to it. Just as an onion consists of layer upon layer that can be peeled away, so does every sort of object have a number of layers; and this is no less true of the nature of mind as explained here; it, too, has layer within layer, slate within state.
All compounded things are subject to disintegration. Since experience and knowledge are impermanent and subject to disintegration, the mind, of which they are functions (nature), is not something that remains constant and eternal. From moment to moment it undergoes change and disintegration. This transience of mind is one aspect of its nature. However, as we have observed, its true nature has many aspects, including consciousness of concrete experience and cognizance of objects. Now let us make a further examination in order to grasp the meaning of the subtle essence of such a mind. Mind came into existence because of its own cause. To deny that the origination of mind is dependent on a cause, or to say that it is a designation given as a means of recognizing the nature of mind aggregates, is not correct. With our superficial observance, mind, which has concrete experience and clear cognizance as its nature, appears to be a powerful, independent, subjective, completely ruling entity. However, deeper analysis will reveal that this mind, possessing as it does the function of experience and cognizance, is not a self-created entity but Is dependent on other factors for its existence. Hence it depends on something other than itself. This non-independent quality of the mind substance is its true nature which in turn is the ultimate reality of the self.
Happiness, Karma and Mind by His Holiness the Dalai Lama
www.lamayeshe.com
Happiness, Karma and Mind, His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Teaching on how to gain happiness and the path to liberation from suffering
June 12 at 2:40pm · Edited · Like · 5 · Remove Preview
Anzelle Pieretti The link you just posted isn't working . . .
June 12 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
Soh Strange.. it seems to work for me
June 12 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti It's working now, thx.
June 12 at 2:41pm · Unlike · 2
Si M Ba it sounds soooooo much better when the Dalai Lama says it. volumes are spoken and even more alluded to in just a few paragraphs, giving one supreme confidence in him as an unerring guide.
June 12 at 2:42pm · Like · 1
Soh By the way I fully concur with Kyle - 'ground of being' is a bad term to translate gZhi. gZhi means basis, and is of the essence, nature, energy. It does not mean 'ground of being'
June 12 at 2:47pm · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon The essence of the basis which is original purity i.e. emptiness free of extremes actually forbids 'being'.
June 12 at 2:49pm · Unlike · 2
Soh When the Dzogchen teachers (HHDL included) speak of gZhi, and then translators translates it to 'ground of being', it can be skewed towards resolving everything in ground of being. But what the teachers/teachings want is to resolve both mind and phenomena to empty-clarity - gZhi, which does not mean the sort of non-Buddhist source and substratum for all phenomena - ground of being all too often becomes equated with 'Brahman' and the likes. This is where the message gets lost in translation.
June 12 at 3:13pm · Edited · Like · 2
Si M Ba Body clothed in a no-cloth robe/
Feet clad in turtle's fur boots/
I bend my bow of rabbit horn/
And prepare to shoot/
The devil, ignorance/
That's Han Shan or Shih Te, I forget which. Those two rascals who would write their poetry down on rocks or pieces of paper, tied to trees--only to be washed away in the next storm. We only have some of their poems because a stalwart disciple would follow behind and collect them.
When people asked for the truth, one would sweep his broom furiously, stirring up dust and then when everyone started to sneeze, he would say, "Just there! When the sneeze happens! Did you catch it?" Whilst the other would shyly unscroll his scroll and revealing it to be without words on either side, would wait for the surprised look and then say, "AH yes, there it is! Quickly now, or you'll miss it!"
June 12 at 2:50pm · Edited · Like
Kyle Dixon The basis is also only called 'the basis' because it hasn't been recognized. However once recognized the basis immediately becomes the path. So in this way it can be seen that the basis is really little more than a literary device. It isn't anything real or substantial, which is another reason why 'ground of being' is an inappropriate translation.
June 12 at 3:01pm · Unlike · 2
Anzelle Pieretti Longchempa calls it the all-encompassing ground.
June 12 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
John Tan I m not even a dust to HHDL. Pls do not increase my karma, Soh.
June 12 at 3:05pm · Unlike · 1
Soh Yeah I'm not even comparing you to HHDL. Just stating the facts that many of us have certain insights which totally does not contradict what HHDL is saying (in fact is in alignment), though Goose Saver mistakenly sees a contradiction - furthermore a bad translation of 'gZhi' as 'ground of being' is very misleading.
June 12 at 3:10pm · Edited · Like
Kyle Dixon Longchenpa never spoke English so it is the translators who refer to it [the gzhi] as what they choose.
June 12 at 3:10pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
Soh If one realizes 'All phenomena are: 1. Empty 2. Cognitive presence 3. Energetic formations; all three at the same time as one Reality.' - that is, gZhi dawns as wisdom (rigpa), or realizing the non-dual of kadag and lhungrub, that is far from simply realizing unfabricated awareness - which is only the clarity aspect, an initial recognition of rigpa but far from the full measure or realization of rigpa (as Loppon Namdrol explained clearly before).
When we realize the clarity/awareness aspect, and take it to be some sort of source and substratum or ground of being, then we have reified it into a metaphysical essence like Brahman of Hinduism. This is why the important next step is to realize no-self emptiness, and then automatically, the non-dual of emptiness and luminosity - which is what the realization of gZhi points to.
June 12 at 3:19pm · Edited · Like
Anzelle Pieretti That's how Khenpo Namdrol Rinpoche taught it and Sangye Khandro translated it in the teachings which are authentic teachings and is good enough for me.
June 12 at 3:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon For most of these teachers English is their second language, and they'll also simply follow trends in translation. The ground of being thing is just a trend, there's no part of the Tibetan term which suggests 'being'.
The actual ground of being is the alaya [kun gzhi] because it s the basis of existence and non-existence. The primordial basis is free from extremes.
June 12 at 3:28pm · Unlike · 2
Soh How it is translated is not as important as how it is understood. Terms like 'ground of being' is quite misleading because it connotes some kind of substantialist source and substratum. 'Ground/basis' is better, but still, it can be misunderstood without proper introduction/explanation/etc
June 12 at 3:28pm · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon Regarding the gzhi, from the Rigpa Rangshar Tantra:
"The mandala is completed in the nonconceptual path,
freeing the bonds of proliferation of thoughts and so on,
free from the empty phenomena of intentions and so on,
beyond being and nonbeing, negative and positive objects, and so on,
liberated from phenomena that fall into an extreme."
From the Unwritten Tantra:
"Since my self-originated wisdom originally is pure of delusion, it is beyond the extremes of being and non-being."
And then addressing the alaya [kun gzhi] which is ignorance, as the actual 'ground of being':
From the sgra thal gyur Tantra:
"Here I will explain the all-basis [skt. alaya, tib. kun gzhi] to start off:
It is the ground of all phenomena [being] and non-phenomena [non-being]."
From the Rigpa Rangshar Tantra:
"The all-basis is the real ignorance [skt. avidya, tib. ma rig pa]."
June 12 at 3:38pm · Unlike · 2
Yor Sunyata So Soh, I have a question. This realization of emptiness. Is it something the mind begins to do or something it stops doing? If I see an object, I know I am not actually seeing what we label it. I see no substance, essence or anything the label could actually refer to. Anything and everything are empty appearances. To me it is something the mind has stopped doing. It no longer "feels" a self within the body or anything else for that matter, nor can it possibly begin doing so again because the error has so thoroughly been seen through, both intellectually and emotionally/mentally. But is there more to it than that?
June 12 at 5:10pm · Like
Si M Ba dunno. try slamming the car door on your hand. if you are still established in equal mind awareness of non-self, give your non-back a pat with your smashed non-hand. Here's a tip: for every hour of reading and studying, 10 hours of sitting.
June 12 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata I think that is good advice, Si M Ba
June 12 at 5:27pm · Like · 1
Si M Ba It is what my teacher advised Yor, as well as a day long sit for too much talking about Dharma aspects that are supposed to be secret.
There is a tendency in our consumer culture to be overly aquisitive. We learn about something, and some new terminology to go with it, do some practive, get a "feel" for it and then believe we have it. Its ours. Mine.
We become far too casual about talking about it. We forget the caluses on Milarepa's butt.
June 12 at 5:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
Soh The realization of emptiness is not something mind does nor is it something that mind stops doing. It is a direct realization into the way things are - empty of self, empty of inherent existence. When we investigate our experience, we discover there is no agent, self, watcher, doer, behind or within experience.. furthermore we can discover that whatever dependently originates is in truth non-arising, empty. It is a form of direct experiential discovery, not a form of intellectual understanding.
Realization leads to release, and you can say that certain afflictive mental activities simply ceases (however, realization is not the cessation itself, but precedes the cessation). For example when realization of anatta occurs, there is a release from the mental doing of I-making - i.e. all activities that pertains to grasping at a self, centerpoint, agent, ceases. In place of that, there is gapless, self-luminous, direct experience of 'in seeing just the seen, in hearing just sound' without any sense of a perceiver. When twofold emptiness is realized, grasping at experience as real and having arising/abiding/ceasing is also released, and there is simply a direct taste of everything as appearing yet illusory and non-arising.
You asked 'is there more to it than that' - it really depends, as I wrote, there are different degrees of self/Self. Releasing the sense of personality is not the same as releasing the delusion of subject/object dichotomy, or releasing the sense of an inherently existing Self/agent/etc, and twofold emptiness is also different.
A series of realizations unfolded for me, and for each insight there is a corresponding direct taste and release of different constructs. There is also a difference between 'realization' and 'experience'. I wrote in depth on these subjects in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html
Awakening to Reality: Experience, Realization, View, Practice and Fruition
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Found this to be a very true and helpful post. Thanks for writing it.Also thanks... See More
June 12 at 6:53pm · Edited · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Goose Saver Soh states “…your writing suggests that realizing that pristine awareness is the final step in Dzogchen and Mahamudra. While this may be the case for certain types of people, it is my experience, as well as many others in this group, that we realized that pristine awareness first before realizing anatta and emptiness (not just an intellectual understanding of anatta and emptiness but coming to direct realization of it).”
Soh, Manjushrimitra received the transmission of all Dzogchen teachings from Garab Dorje and subdivided them into three series: Semde, Longde and Mennagde. HHDL is addressing here semde, that is the "mind series" and how the progression is realized through the different Buddhist schools. Sorry, I fail to understand what you and your friends do in the dharma. The delusions are endless, we vow to cut through them all.
June 12 at 8:59pm · Like
Yor Sunyata Soh Thank you. That was very helpful.
June 12 at 9:37pm · Like
Soh I'm pretty sure that Manjushrimitra and Garab Dorje is not talking about 'Awareness' as being some sort of final realization. If they are, then their insights are really not novel at all, as all sorts of non-Buddhists even before Buddha have already realized Awareness. However the explanation of gZhi is not simply the 'clarity' or 'awareness'.
As Loppon Namdrol clearly explained, recognition of clarity is really only an initial recognition of rigpa, not yet the realization of emptiness (occurs in third vision of thodgal), and not the full measure of rigpa which is realizing the nondual of kadag and lhungrub.
June 12 at 9:43pm · Like
Si M Ba Most lamas and truly accomplished practitioners are extremely reluctant to discuss any of this unless one is a close student. There are very good reasons for this. too much loose talk about something creates a kind of large group thought bubble around it. It becomes just another, "thing," to cram into one's daily life. Once sacred, secret, powerful information is bubbled as it were into group think, it no longer matters how precise any translation about it is because at that point it is just a semblance of the actual transmission and any subsequent realization is just so much mental masturbation. My own teacher would hit us, hard, if he caught us talking amongst ourselves about these teachings and then challenge us on our realization of this essence. when no one could come forward, he would basically say in his gruff Tibetan, "Exactly! Practice, don't talk." We are far too comfortable. Few of us have suffered or risked dying to protect these teachings. And here's the thing, if you havent actually realized something, no one is fooled by you no matter how many words you say. As the Amish say, "Many words in the lie is hid." no matter how tightly you grip the exact, correct translation of something, it is not going to save you. For that you need to open your hand.
June 12 at 9:44pm · Like · 3
Ej Alex There are also people out there who are really thankful that there is someone who doesn´t make a mystery out of all this stuff, but speaks clearly, is distinguishing subtle nuances clearly. To speak about such things can be an obstacle for certain people, but not everyone. There do exist so many paths because people are different. There is a way of going beyond words and symbols, even without a teacher who is standing behind you. Not everyone can be lucky and have a Sangha/Teacher/Dharma Center in his neighbourhood. Does that mean you have bad Karma, shouldn´t practice or engaging in understanding the teachings? I don´t think so. Reasoning and talking about this big words is an important part of the path. I´m glad that we live during the information age and have access to all this information. I can understand that someone doesn´t want to talk openly, but that´s not the purpose of this group as I see it. Secretiveness is in my opinion outdated.
June 12 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
Goose Saver Unless we unpack our views conceptually and experimentally, we struggle in delusion. Do not be misguided by words. The theory of semde transcends all the various levels of yanas, all the composed and contaminated aspects of the so-called “true path” which are bound by a rigid concept of apprehending. This is nothing more than the power or play of the mind. There is no clarity in words as there is no fixed dharma. In mengagde, as the glow (eDangs) of originally pure essence (Ngo-Bo), the great freedom from concepts and expressions, arises it is free from elaborations.
June 12 at 11:15pm · Like
Soh Si M Ba, I'm not sure if you're referring to me, but as Tommy McNally used to say, this group is not like most other groups - there are quite a number here who are willing to share their own insights and experiences. It is not good to presume that everyone here are not speaking from experiential realizations. And many of us do recognise in each other our experiences - as we share many similarities in terms of experiences, insights, realizations in our paths. It is a joy indeed, to speak and hear of experiences with other practitioners. As long as it is a sharing in an appropriate setting or situation, I think it is good.
June 12 at 11:30pm · Edited · Like · 3
Soh Of course if one isn't sure about something then it is better not to bullshit others and act as if one has realized. That would be bad.
June 12 at 11:33pm · Like · 3
Robert Dominik "Sometimes there is bliss in a row of yogins, there is bliss in comparing experiental realization." ~ Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
June 13 at 1:33am · Like
Robert Dominik What I've seen in this thread was that some people presented their views on what Dzogchen and Mahamudra are about and some people liked it. Then some people presented this as an erroneous understanding od Dharma. Then some of the people from the first group said that all debates and views are useless, conceptual. So... it's ok when they present and like their views but when someone challenges them, then its all wrong and just talking and studying instead of 24/7 meditation and real non-conceptual insight (which is funny because we all are debating this on facebook). Also we heard something about real masters and people with real experience (instead of just ConceptualYana) but then I still see people who are not Dzogchen masters arguing what Semde or (!) Upadesa are about! XD Anyway that's how the whole thing appeared to me. I also perceived some aggressivenes in this thread (from people who talked about love and being kind). Does my post resolve these things? Not. Are these my projections? Possibly. Is this skillful? I don't know. But I felt like pointing out how as a bystander I felt about this discussion.
June 13 at 1:45am · Edited · Like · 2
Stuffs RedTurtle I am just a low level practitioner with little to no experience in things that most people here speak of. However that doesn't make one uniformed to the context implied in language. Not pointing at anyone in particular in this thread, everyone very nice, but with certain "experienced" practitioners in this group, their words convey a stinky air of superiority, so whether it is intended on the surface or not, your words betray you. I agree with Pete. Let's play nice . All in this together.
June 13 at 1:48am · Like
Stuffs RedTurtle But the information always appreciated, and the debates are informative, so thank you all.
Maybe more emphasis on how to get there, rather than what is or isn't. People knock Jax a lot, but from what I can tell from his group his followers are having some pretty interesting Thogal insights. I was told not to practice anything I found on the inet by my teacher and am heeding his advice, but seems like maybe Jax has more experience than people here give him credit for
June 13 at 1:56am · Edited · Like
Anzelle Pieretti I get what you mean Stuffs RedTurtle and am so glad this wasn't my introduction to Buddhism or I would have been totally turned off.
June 13 at 2:01am · Like · 1
Soh Stuffs RedTurtle: if you got the impression from my posts some 'air of superiority' then that certainly isn't what I intended.
However, it would be very pitiable indeed, if one has some realization of 'Awareness' and thinks that it is a final realization. I say for a fact that so many of us here have seen that realization of Awareness is really only an initial realization. There are many pitfalls to that - Awareness becomes distorted and clung to due to ignorance, due to views of inherency and duality. If we treat this as a final realization, then we have cut off all our progress and possibility for liberation. What liberates is not the 'clarity' aspect.
June 13 at 2:11am · Edited · Like · 2
Stuffs RedTurtle Oh, Soh , I wasn't talking about you, or Kyle, or anyone else in this thread.
June 13 at 2:12am · Unlike · 3
Stuffs RedTurtle The past few months of meditation and serious contemplation has been very humbling for me from studying my mind through Dhamma. Not but. 6 months prior I was a very arrogant jerk, and prob still carry those tendencies unbeknownst to me somewhere, but in some people even outside of this forum it is very evident in thier expressions to other people, and I wonder how, if on an exp level they can be so arrogant if they have actually looked at thier own mind. I am in a constant state of disbelief at myself recently at all of the negativity and projections that go through my mind and actions on a daily basis.
June 13 at 2:16am · Like
Yor Sunyata Hmm. Who would even want to bullshit others about realizations? If they take Buddhism seriously, that would be really bad karma, and also contrary to Buddhist teachings. If they do not take Buddhism seriously, one would think they do not understand it very well, and this lack of understanding would be very visible from what they write.
June 13 at 2:19am · Unlike · 3
Robert Dominik "People knock Jax a lot, but from what I can tell from his group his followers are having some pretty interesting Thogal insights." <- Well we'll just have to see if any people following Jaxchen attain Rainbow Bodies. For now it's better to stick to teachers from authentic lineages (in which people had such attainments). Also I heard that despite Jax's claims that CHNNR told him he could teach people... some wrote emails to CHNNR and he said that it isn't true. When we add to that other concerns about Jax... I dunno. I woudln't like to engage in unnecessary slander but I would advise people to be very cautious when people broadcast innermost, secret teachings on their facebook walls.
June 13 at 2:27am · Edited · Like · 2
Stuffs RedTurtle Yor Sunyata, I'm not exp enough to know, but for myself coming out of a weird exp before any real encounter with a teacher and then self educating through direct pointing groups and books, it might just be misunderstanding and then a human tendency to blow a peak exp out of proportion, for me the last time was finding what knows and assuming that was anatta, which Soh exp clearly it's not.
June 13 at 2:27am · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Yeah Robert I agree, I was told not to delve into ANY practice from internet, so I'm sticking to flesh and blood lama.
June 13 at 2:29am · Like · 1
Soh Jax's views used to be completely indistinguishable from Vedanta's substantialist views. Recently it seems to be more nonsubstantialist. Just a recent observation, I might be wrong.
June 13 at 2:30am · Like
Yor Sunyata Right, but then you would not be bullshitting. You would merely be making an honest mistake. Everybody makes mistakes. As for my realizations, I know what I experience. I do not know with absolute certainty what levels of realization the experience corresponds to. For this reasons, I have asked teachers I trust, such as Shinzen Young, to evaluate them.
June 13 at 2:31am · Like · 1
Yor Sunyata Soh, it seems to me that Jax listened to you and learned from it. An admirable quality.
June 13 at 2:32am · Like
Robert Dominik Dunno. There was one time when his views were getting more nonsubstantialist - he even started saying that Brahman is false and Advaita is mistaken. Then he started to appreciate Vedanta again. Who knows?
June 13 at 2:32am · Like
Soh Yes I think it's not right to teach something that requires lineage transmission unless permission is given by a teacher. I'm not too sure if Jax has permission to teach. Perhaps it would be better if he just drop the 'Dzogchen' and teach what he knows
June 13 at 2:32am · Like · 2
Robert Dominik Anyway Chogyal Namkhai Norbu likes to tell a particular story about his trip to Mount Kailash with some of his students. He says that some of his students wanted him to teach them secret techniques (guess which ones hahahahahaha) but he said that they aren't ready and he will decide when is the right time. Then one of them went as a far as suggesting that Rinpoche doesn't have any compassion and is selfish, wants to keep the teachings for himself. Then later they started to reading ALOUD a book about these secret techniques in a bus (there were other, random passengers there) - a book that some random guy from San Francisco printed and distributed.
June 13 at 2:35am · Edited · Like · 1
Yor Sunyata I am a bit doubtful about transmissions. One the one hand, it seems very wise to have teachers who can make sure the student does not make mistakes on the path. On the other hand, it is also very convenient for the teaching office as an institution, and it can easily be abused, as we have seen in many religions. It is very convenient for Catholic priests, for instance, that Catholics have to confess mortal sins to a priest in order to be forgiven. That means they are necessary and may enjoy job security. At the moment, I am agnostic about empowerments and transmissions.
June 13 at 2:39am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon The fact that people are sharing their thogal insights on Jax's facebook group is frightening. Whatever they are sharing is merely grasping, they have no connection to a lineage and no transmission.
June 13 at 2:40am · Like
Robert Dominik It's funny that people are so into secret techniques and the definite view of traditions like Dzogchen but they aren't so eager to do basic practices, get a Direct Introduction from a qualified master, sing Song of Vajra (from my experience it is really, really powerful), do Ganapujas or other collective and secondary practices. All the Tibetan teachers say that these are very important and all the practitioners of Dzogchen in the past acknowledged that. I even heard western people (strangely they were "students" of Jax) who dismissed all these as unnecessary cultural baggage. If it was so then Tibetan Rinpoches who teach Dzogchen would be deluded and mistaken about Dzogchen - and so their students (among those - the students who criticise practices they view as non-essential, people like Jax etc) would be investing time in deluded Dharma.
June 13 at 2:41am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata Well, the Buddha himself did not come from a lineage, and was rejected by some people for that reason. I forget which sutta speaks about the student who comes to the Buddha to learn, and he likes what he hears, but when he hears that the Buddha has no teacher and can point to no lineage, he leaves. The student's name was "Almost, but not quite".
June 13 at 2:43am · Like
Kyle Dixon Yeah, they have zero preliminaries to substantiate their path, no foundation due to the fact that Jax downplays that aspect of the teachings. It's really quite foolish to think you can just join a facebook group and learn a man ngag sde teaching and start practicing at home. What a mess.
June 13 at 2:43am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon The practice in question is found within the context of Vajrayana, ergo lineage is crucial.
June 13 at 2:44am · Like
Robert Dominik Yeah but Buddha did not teach all his teachings openly (like creating facebook groups everybody can join or writing on his wall). Sometimes he taught people only moral advice. Also as Mahayana we should accept Mahayana canon and that Buddha taught Hinayana to Sravakas but gave different teachings for Bodhisattvas. + as Kyle said - in Vajrayana lineage is everything.
June 13 at 2:45am · Edited · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata Yes, so it is said. Perhaps it is true. I certainly would not presume otherwise. Unfortunately, there are no Dzogchen teachers in my country, so books is all I have.
June 13 at 2:45am · Like
Kyle Dixon Many teachers give teachings via webcast this day in age, that is a good route to go if you do not have access to a teacher in person. Good to at least make a connection that way, and then perhaps one day you can meet that teacher, or a teacher and receive teachings.
June 13 at 2:47am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik Anyway the Dzogchen tradition says that getting Direct Introduction is a Sine Qua Non of practising Dzogchen. No DI - no Dzogchen practice. How hard can it be getting a DI? All you need to do is just watch a live webcast by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. It's not that hard xD Also CHNNR is quite an open teacher and covers all the topics that beginners need in his webcasts (and can help more experienced practitioners too). Well I'm not saying CHNNR is the only good teacher of Dzogchen there is, because there are certainly other qualified lamas - but his teachings are the easiest to access.
June 13 at 2:51am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata There is no Hinayana ( http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha140.htm ). And some of the stories told about the origin of Mahayana texts, such as being kept secret since the time of the historical Buddha, are demonstrably false. The texts DO NOT stem from the time of the Buddha, just like it would be impossible to believe that Harry Potter was written in the 17th century. This does not mean that they don't have value, though.
The myth of Hinayana
www.budsas.org
Catushparishatsutra"Erstens: Gefallen zu finden an und anzunehmen die niedrigen ... See More
June 13 at 2:48am · Like · Remove Preview
Kyle Dixon Buddha Sakyamuni is also held to be a nirma?akaya emanation of Vajradhara, who is in turn an emanation of the primordial buddha Samantabhadra.
June 13 at 2:48am · Like · 1
Soh Yor Sunyata, can you expand on "being kept secret since the time of the historical Buddha, are demonstrably false" because many Mahayana believers would insist that it cannot be demonstrably false. That is, some of them do actually buy into the myths that they are kept in other realms or in the sea, etc. (personally I do not really believe in these myths - though I can accept that teachings not taught in a historical context can still be considered Buddhavacana)
June 13 at 2:50am · Edited · Like
Robert Dominik About CHNNR and teaching Dzogchen... he created Santi Maha Sangha program exactly for the purpose that his students could pass the teachings on. I doubt that he could give permission for teaching for people outside of this program. So this probably resolves the topic.
June 13 at 2:50am · Like
Yor Sunyata Well, if you read a text that claims to be from the 17th century, but it uses 20th century langauge, mentions ipods, computers, geographical locations that did not exist in the 17th century, then we can be certain it does not come from that time period.
June 13 at 2:51am · Unlike · 1
Yor Sunyata You could rationalize it and say that the people who wrote it in the 17th century could see the future, and wrote with language from the future. That is unprovable and would be typical for fundamentalists. But why give only Buddhist texts such special treatment? It would undermine all of science if applied to any text that claims to be ancient.
June 13 at 2:53am · Like
Yor Sunyata Suffice it to say, there is not a single historian or scholar in the entire world of academia who thinks the Mahayana sutras come from the time period of the Buddha.
June 13 at 2:54am · Like
Robert Dominik "At the moment, I am agnostic about empowerments and transmissions." <- So you can stick to sutric teachings. Vajrayana is pretty clear about the need for empowerments and transmissions. If we are to dismiss it.. why not dismiss the rest of the Vajrayana alltogether on the same grounds? /
June 13 at 2:55am · Like
Yor Sunyata This, of course, does not negate the insights in them. And it may be they stem from visions (sambhogakaya) and are true in a spiritual sense. I am convinced that many of them are true, because the insights in them are profound.
June 13 at 2:55am · Like · 2
Robert Dominik We could in the same manner say that Pali Canon does not come from the time period of the Buddha. The facts are that the oldest scriptures found contain both Hinayana and Mahayana. Also the interpretation that Mahayana is a later invention was established in the Western View by the scholars from XIX century and the Western historiography. Does that mean that it's valid? Let's be honest here - Western historians even suggested that Buddha lived in the 4th or 3th BC century and not in 6th and 5th century BC. But latest archeological data proved that wrong.
June 13 at 2:57am · Like
Yor Sunyata Robert Dominik Well, think there are profound insights in the teachings. I do not deny that I may need a transmission, and I will do what is needed to get one. But having been raised in an untrue religion, and used years to research it, I know something about authoritarian structures and how they perpetuate themselves through time. And so I am agnostic. BTW, I took the liberty of asking Buddha Avalokitesvara for the empowerment/transmission I needed to benefit from the book Nang Jang (Buddhahood without meditation) during meditation. I had an incredibly powerful experience a fraction of a second after I did that. I questioned a Tibetan lama about this happening, and he said "That was an empowerment".
June 13 at 2:59am · Like · 5
Yor Sunyata As for western scholars, I don't wish to argue with you. If you take the time to read their works, you will see their reasoning, and it is quite persuasive. It is not due to some bias against Buddhism (or Christianity, as Christians think). It has to do with the scientific method, which is created to overcome human bias and determine what actually happened.
June 13 at 3:01am · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Wow Yor, that's pretty cool, I didn't even know that could be done. Lol, I got to that part in the book and said, oops, well, it being in my hands is empowerment enough I will have to apologize to Buddha for reading it without permission, ask him and reread it
June 13 at 3:11am · Like
Yor Sunyata I didn't know it could be done either, and did not (and do not) know for sure if there even is such a being. But I thought, "what the hell, why not try?" Since I didn't and do not have access to a Dzogchen teacher, I really had no other option.
June 13 at 3:14am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik Not everyone is so fortunate to have a strong connection with Avalokitesvara
June 13 at 3:15am · Like
Robert Dominik About Dzogchen - getting a DI nowadays is very easy if only one is interested in it (people in the past had to make dangerous jorneys - many miles on foot across mountains and wilderness), so it's hard to use "I have no opportunity of getting a DI" as an excuse
June 13 at 3:16am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata I don't have a strong connection. I simply tried something that spontaneously appeared as an idea during meditation. And something happened as a result. It could have been my mind playing tricks. I don't know. I love the book, though. I actually revere it, because of the quite obvious truths in it, and the lucid way in which it explains them.
June 13 at 3:18am · Like · 2
Stuffs RedTurtle That makes me wonder about that weird old exp I had after praying to Buddha and Hhdl.. He he , Hmm strange stuff in this world
June 13 at 3:18am · Like
Yor Sunyata Yes, the world is strange and wonderful And filled with suffering
June 13 at 3:19am · Like · 2
Soh I also encountered Avalokitesvara in an incredibly blissful state in sleep, was told about compassion, after that I woke up. I wasn't praying or anything.
June 13 at 3:20am · Edited · Like · 4
Robert Dominik Also... it's possible that we have some connections with certain teachings or texts due to past good karma and merit. CHNNR says that it is not a coincidence that people are interested in Dzogchen. Still he says that having some interest or intuition of one or two things is not like perfectly realising all the teachings due to hearing random phrase. So he advises people to better get correct transmission. Doesn't necessarily have to be through him - as I said there are other qualified teachers. But he is giving DI by a live internet webcast and is most accessible...
June 13 at 3:20am · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon Yor, You could have a strong connection from past lives though. For example I had noticeable experiences while doing Green Tara practice for the very first time, and did not have any connection to her prior to that. So perhaps you have a connection to Avalokitesvara or Mahakala.
June 13 at 3:20am · Edited · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata I didn't encounter him. I didn't see an image. It really difficult to try to articulate exactly what happened. It was more like lots of stuff happening in experience dropped away, and what was in the background was illuminated. At any rate, it could have been my mind playing tricks on me. I will first receive an online transmission from Namkhai Norbu. Later, when I have the option, I will go on a Dzogchen retreat. I do not care how the texts originated. There is no doubt in my mind that they contain truth.
June 13 at 3:24am · Like · 2
Robert Dominik My personal experience is that I just being near Rinpoche (like guarding his house at night) had a very positive effect on my practise (the first time I had a fully lucid dream of clarity + foreseen a future event in a dream - also my practice of GuruYoga seemed to be much more efficient than before in terms of time spent in the state of GuruYoga). Even webcasts - I find it very refreshing for practice to just get a DI again and listen to the teachings I heard for the second or third time. It just might be so that something clicks that didn't click the last time
June 13 at 3:24am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata Yes, I have also had experiences merely listening to teachers online, and even more so in real life. But it may simply be ASMR. I am not sure.
June 13 at 3:26am · Like
Kyle Dixon Yes you don't have to actually encounter a full body apparition of the deity to receive an experience associated with him/her. Whatever nyam you had after evoking Avalokitesvara was the contact. I highly doubt it was your mind playing tricks on you, for you would not be able to readily reproduce such an experience.
June 13 at 3:27am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon But that is good news that you're planning to receive transmission from ChNN, I think it will be very beneficial for you. That is what I did, and I then went to meet him later.
June 13 at 3:28am · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata Well, Kyle, the fruits have been positive. I am not merely thinking in terms of realizations, but the enormous increase in compassion that I have been experiencing the last few years (it made a low carb, Atkins fan like I used to be, become a vegetarian and then a vegan). To me that is far more precious than the end of feeling there is a self anywhere in experience. But I think there must be a connection.
June 13 at 3:31am · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata But yes, I really like ChNN, and have benefited from his books. So the next time he has a retreat in a country close to mine, I will go.
June 13 at 3:33am · Like
Robert Dominik Well I watched my first webcast thanks to a discussion with Malcolm in Dharma Connection It was surely very beneficial and then after a few months I went to see him live. Since that moment things were just going better
June 13 at 3:33am · Like
Yor Sunyata Question. Is it possible to receive all needed transmissions at once?
June 13 at 3:34am · Like
Robert Dominik One full retreat (which means one full set of webcasts) is enough to get everything needed for practising Dzogchen. You get symbollic transmission, oral instructions, Direct Introduction - everything you need to start. Also at the end of every retreat (the last day) Rinpoche gives lungs for secondary practices It might be of interest to you that Rinpoche also gives lung for a practice connected to Avalokitesvara (haha won't say more until you get the lung xD) I suggest making notes of what lungs you receive and then asking other practitioners about these techniques. Anyway If I'm not mistaken the next retreat begins on 20th June and lasts till 28th
June 13 at 3:38am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata Cool Looking forward to it
June 13 at 3:39am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik A good book to acquire after getting DI is in my opinion Precious Vase. It contains all the basics that are important in Rinpoche's opinion for people who want to seriously follow Dzogchen teachings (even if they are not interested in taking SMS course).
June 13 at 3:42am · Like
Yor Sunyata Can't find it on Amazon, Robert.
June 13 at 3:45am · Like
Robert Dominik You can find the books of Dzogchen Community in the Shang Shung Institute store http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.php?l=product_detail...
e-book The Precious Vase (English PDF ebook)
www.shangshungstore.org
The Precious Vase
June 13 at 3:50am · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Yor Sunyata It is restriced, and so I would have to lie to get it. Cannot do that, although I have felt a certain temptation in the past
June 13 at 3:51am · Like
Robert Dominik Well if it's restricted, then it means it's for people with DI
June 13 at 3:54am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata Anzelle, it is a restricted text. It says so in the description. I will download it once I am allowed to. I don't think lying in order to obtain a restricted text in any way will be conducive to spiritual growth. Besides, my bookshelf and Kindle-reader is filled with a huge amount of wonderful books that are not restricted.
June 13 at 3:57am · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata Home » RESTRICTED SHOP» Restricted ebooks in English
June 13 at 4:01am · Like · 1
Yor Sunyata And also: "Please click here to learn more about restricted ebooks."
June 13 at 4:01am · Like
Yor Sunyata I have tried put them in the cart from that shop before. Before you check out, you need to state that you have received the required empowerments and transmissions to read it, and that you are a member. I couldn't bring myself to do that, since it isn't true, however much I would like it to be.
June 13 at 4:03am · Like
Robert Dominik Well no worries. If you watch the next webcast you will meet the most important requirement soon enough.
June 13 at 4:18am · Like
David Boulter To get DI do you have to watch a webcast live or can you watch a recording?
June 13 at 5:33am · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Also when is the next one?
June 13 at 5:37am · Like
Stuffs RedTurtle http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/worldwidetransmissions/
Tsegyalgar - The International Dzogchen Community in North America - World-Wide Transmissions
tsegyalgar.org
The International Dzogchen Community in North America
June 13 at 5:39am · Like · Remove Preview
Robert Dominik 20 - 28 June I think - retreat in Russia. Not sure 100% because there was supposed to be a retreat on Crimea but it was probably canceled, because of the situation there.
June 13 at 5:40am · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle That answered my question, still looks like you need to contact them for permission
June 13 at 5:40am · Like
Robert Dominik The webcast has to be live. You can also get a DI via telephone. The most important requirement is that you and Master are doing this together at the same time. There can be slight delay though - like 5-10 seconds - it isn't a problem because the DI still goes on when you start doing it. Afterall webcasts have some lags and delays - like one second or two seconds. But a video recording doesn't have that function.
June 13 at 5:42am · Edited · Like · 2
Robert Dominik Of course going to a retreat personally is the best option but a Direct Introduction with an online webcast is enough to start and do practices. The same thing is with lungs for some secondary practices.
June 13 at 5:43am · Like · 1
David Boulter Thanks, Robert.
June 13 at 5:45am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php <- Soon there should be information about the next webcast here. Also you watch webcasts here and might get files related to webcasts here.
DC Webcast
www.shangshunginstitute.net
Introduction about this retreat teaching, transmission of Ati Guru Yoga and Short Gana Puja,Then Short Gana Puja for the day of Dhakini.
June 13 at 5:47am · Like · Remove Preview
Stuffs RedTurtle Says aug 5th at 11 pm. I will make sure to call them. Do I have to ask my teacher first? Would that be an sign of disrespect?
June 13 at 5:47am · Like
Robert Dominik Aug 5th is WWT. This is a like kind of a special event for the newcomers. It is just a short practice - powerful but to my knowledge WWT is often done without mentioned lungs, explanations that are given during regular webcasts etc. I recommend it but you can and should watch regular webcasts. The most important thing is that the webcast schedule should mention things like Direct Introduction, Transmission of Ati Guru Yoga, Ati Direct Transmission. For example if you use the link I provided then there will be the schedule of the last webcast - watching it was enough to start.
June 13 at 5:58am · Edited · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Thanks Robert
June 13 at 5:54am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik "Do I have to ask my teacher first? Would that be an sign of disrespect?" <- Well that depends on your relationship with your teacher. Surely you can talk to him - it is nice if he knows what are you up it with your practice etc. But of course people often have more than one teacher, so I guess this isn't a problem. Probably you just do both things and try not mix the practices (like comming up with your own cross-practises xD) but do both things with respect to them on their own. Though this is something you should figure out as an individual on your own. CHNNR is a great teacher but one could argue that having a personal relationship with a teacher is much better than following webcasts and books - even if done by a great master. Depends on what do you feel, how much time do you have etc. Either way I don't see how watching webcasts from one full retreat with CHNNR and getting DI would be harmful. The only bad thing that can happen is if you get lots of empowerments and instructions but then do nothing with them. But if you meditate, develop bodhichitta, work on your compassion and generally do your best, then it's great
June 13 at 6:02am · Edited · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Cool, I doubt he would mind anyway he is very casual. I'm glad to hear this because I have been wanting to return to Chenrezig center to learn the Lam Rim from Rinpoche Geshe Wendak he taught at dhamasala for 14 years, would be a poor opportunity to miss. I felt very at home there but only attended a few Tara pujas and one lam rim teaching when I had my first weird thing go on, but I was too afraid to ask him directly so I talked to other students instead. Oddly lol, I'm pretty sure he literally read my mind, which is a weird thing to say I know, but I was sitting quietly before puja and had some thoughts going on, when I looked up he was looking at me and then noticed I was surprised to see him doing so and then addressed the room about the same thing I was thinking, too weird a coincidence, and it freaked me out so much I didn't go back ha ha. Maybe I am just superstitious, but it was odd
June 13 at 6:09am · Edited · Like · 3
Stuffs RedTurtle Still ever since it freaks me out very much that this stuff might be possible. One thing to hear it claimed on inet and another to sit infront of teachers who may have these weird abilities
June 13 at 6:20am · Like
Anzelle Pieretti A good Guru will know your mind better than you know it yourself. It goes with the territory. It's a great thing when a Lama has that kind of connection to your mind, rejoice. So many ppl come on the path wishing for that kind of connection. Not everyone has this experience.
June 13 at 6:42am · Like · 3
Stuffs RedTurtle Oh cool I should def go back then
June 13 at 6:49am · Like · 2
Anzelle Pieretti Oh yes indeed
June 13 at 6:50am · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti Gyatrul Rinpoche always told us to be weary of teachers who forbid you to go to anyone else. A true teacher is going to let you fall down, make your own mistakes and be there to point you in the right direction when you do.
June 13 at 6:53am · Like · 6
Stuffs RedTurtle Oddly this is the first place I found when looking for a buddhist center too they just told me such weird things at the time I couldn't accept. Some of them are easier now. So cool thanks for the advice Anzelle
June 13 at 6:55am · Like · 4
Soh
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June 12
Sometimes all we do is conceptual grasping and clinging with our deluded minds like pots and pans dangling from a pot rack in the ceiling. And as a wind approaches, all we get is----BANG! We are like a gosling trying to fly with undeveloped wings.
We hear of reference to what seems to be three different approaches: Madhyamaka, Mahamudra, and Mahasandhi or Dzogchen. HH Dalai Lama has a nice way of explaining it. All three have a common root, what might be called the root yana or Fundamental Vehicle. This involves recognition that all suffering has a root in the mind, in the mind of the individual being experiencing the suffering. When we begin to examine our minds as well as the other elements in our make-up, we can again determine, both intellectually and eventually through direct experience that mind per se is not a thing in and of itself. When we are discussing mind we are not discussing some single entity. What we are discussing has no origin, no cessation, and cannot be localized or described in ordinary conceptual terms. This examination, this kind of analysis, is known as the cultivation of prajna or wisdom, and aims to arrive at a deeper insight and wisdom into the nature of reality. With a deep state of meditative absorption the mind can settle into a state of calm. Then as a supportive element in our practice, there is the training in sila—ethics, morality, and discipline. HH Dalai Lama gives us the example of a gardener planting a bush. If the gardener wants the bush to grow healthy and strong, he will place a fence or barrier around the bush to protect it from damage. In the same way, the various levels of ordination, all the moral codes, disciplines, and ethical systems of Buddhism provide the protective and supportive environment for our wisdom and meditation to develop. These three higher trainings of wisdom, meditation, and ethics constitute the Fundamental Vehicle of Buddhism and underlie all the different approaches and yanas of Buddhism.
As we examine all the different elements of our experience, all the phenomena in the world around us, we begin to understand that not only does the individual personality lack any true self-nature, but also in the same way each and every phenomenon are empty. Awe, the big word—emptiness— that pervades not only our own individual ego or sense of self, but the whole of reality dawns upon us. This is what is referred to as the Madhyamaka approach or philosophy of the Middle Way. Now above and beyond that, there are the understandings that not only are all phenomena in samsara and nirvana, essentially empty or devoid of self-nature, but also the root of all these phenomena, the source from which they all spring, is the mind. This ties in more with the Mahamudra approach, and it is slightly more profound. Madhyamaka and Mahamudra are examining the same thing from different points of view, and the Mahamudra approach tends to go one step further.
The next, and final step after that is to determine where that mind comes from—the ground of being from which the ordinary, samsaric mind emerges, the mother that gives birth to the child of ordinary mind. This discovery of a self-arising state of primordial awareness, one that goes beyond ordinary, conceptual thought, is that with which the approach of Mahasandhi or Dzogchen is concerned. This final step, from the Dzogchen point of view is to discover the ground of being from which the mind arises and why great emphasis is placed on Preliminary Practices, or Ngondro. This ground of being is often personified as the Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra or Kuntuzangpo. In Zen, where everything seems to be a grunt or gesture, the floor is hit to indicate this state or ground of Primordial Being. The Tibetans have names for everything— isn’t that wonderful!! Clarity with words, and the clarity of no words that point to the heart essence of the Great Perfection.
Sometimes all we do is conceptual grasping and clinging with our deluded minds like pots and pans dangling from a pot rack in the ceiling. And as a wind approaches, all we get is----BANG! We are like a gosling trying to fly with undeveloped wings. We hear of reference to what seems to be three different approaches: Madhyamaka, Mahamudra, and Mahasandhi or Dzogchen. HH Dalai Lama has a nice way of explaining it. All three have a common root, what might be called the root yana or Fundamental Vehicle. This involves recognition that all suffering has a root in the mind, in the mind of the individual being experiencing the suffering. When we begin to examine our minds as well as the other elements in our make-up, we can again determine, both intellectually and eventually through direct experience that mind per se is not a thing in and of itself. When we are discussing mind we are not discussing some single entity. What we are discussing has no origin, no cessation, and cannot be localized or described in ordinary conceptual terms. This examination, this kind of analysis, is known as the cultivation of prajna or wisdom, and aims to arrive at a deeper insight and wisdom into the nature of reality. With a deep state of meditative absorption the mind can settle into a state of calm. Then as a supportive element in our practice, there is the training in sila—ethics, morality, and discipline. HH Dalai Lama gives us the example of a gardener planting a bush. If the gardener wants the bush to grow healthy and strong, he will place a fence or barrier around the bush to protect it from damage. In the same way, the various levels of ordination, all the moral codes, disciplines, and ethical systems of Buddhism provide the protective and supportive environment for our wisdom and meditation to develop. These three higher trainings of wisdom, meditation, and ethics constitute the Fundamental Vehicle of Buddhism and underlie all the different approaches and yanas of Buddhism. As we examine all the different elements of our experience, all the phenomena in the world around us, we begin to understand that not only does the individual personality lack any true self-nature, but also in the same way each and every phenomenon are empty. Awe, the big word—emptiness— that pervades not only our own individual ego or sense of self, but the whole of reality dawns upon us. This is what is referred to as the Madhyamaka approach or philosophy of the Middle Way. Now above and beyond that, there are the understandings that not only are all phenomena in samsara and nirvana, essentially empty or devoid of self-nature, but also the root of all these phenomena, the source from which they all spring, is the mind. This ties in more with the Mahamudra approach, and it is slightly more profound. Madhyamaka and Mahamudra are examining the same thing from different points of view, and the Mahamudra approach tends to go one step further. The next, and final step after that is to determine where that mind comes from—the ground of being from which the ordinary, samsaric mind emerges, the mother that gives birth to the child of ordinary mind. This discovery of a self-arising state of primordial awareness, one that goes beyond ordinary, conceptual thought, is that with which the approach of Mahasandhi or Dzogchen is concerned. This final step, from the Dzogchen point of view is to discover the ground of being from which the mind arises and why great emphasis is placed on Preliminary Practices, or Ngondro. This ground of being is often personified as the Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra or Kuntuzangpo. In Zen, where everything seems to be a grunt or gesture, the floor is hit to indicate this state or ground of Primordial Being. The Tibetans have names for everything— isn’t that wonderful!! Clarity with words, and the clarity of no words that point to the heart essence of the Great Perfection.
Goose Saver
Sometimes all we do is conceptual grasping and clinging with our deluded minds like pots and pans dangling from a pot rack in the ceiling. And as a wind approaches, all we get is----BANG! We are like a gosling trying to fly with undeveloped wings.
We hear of reference to what seems to be three different approaches: Madhyamaka, Mahamudra, and Mahasandhi or Dzogchen. HH Dalai Lama has a nice way of explaining it. All three have a common root, what might be called the root yana or Fundamental Vehicle. This involves recognition that all suffering has a root in the mind, in the mind of the individual being experiencing the suffering. When we begin to examine our minds as well as the other elements in our make-up, we can again determine, both intellectually and eventually through direct experience that mind per se is not a thing in and of itself. When we are discussing mind we are not discussing some single entity. What we are discussing has no origin, no cessation, and cannot be localized or described in ordinary conceptual terms. This examination, this kind of analysis, is known as the cultivation of prajna or wisdom, and aims to arrive at a deeper insight and wisdom into the nature of reality. With a deep state of meditative absorption the mind can settle into a state of calm. Then as a supportive element in our practice, there is the training in sila—ethics, morality, and discipline. HH Dalai Lama gives us the example of a gardener planting a bush. If the gardener wants the bush to grow healthy and strong, he will place a fence or barrier around the bush to protect it from damage. In the same way, the various levels of ordination, all the moral codes, disciplines, and ethical systems of Buddhism provide the protective and supportive environment for our wisdom and meditation to develop. These three higher trainings of wisdom, meditation, and ethics constitute the Fundamental Vehicle of Buddhism and underlie all the different approaches and yanas of Buddhism.
As we examine all the different elements of our experience, all the phenomena in the world around us, we begin to understand that not only does the individual personality lack any true self-nature, but also in the same way each and every phenomenon are empty. Awe, the big word—emptiness— that pervades not only our own individual ego or sense of self, but the whole of reality dawns upon us. This is what is referred to as the Madhyamaka approach or philosophy of the Middle Way. Now above and beyond that, there are the understandings that not only are all phenomena in samsara and nirvana, essentially empty or devoid of self-nature, but also the root of all these phenomena, the source from which they all spring, is the mind. This ties in more with the Mahamudra approach, and it is slightly more profound. Madhyamaka and Mahamudra are examining the same thing from different points of view, and the Mahamudra approach tends to go one step further.
The next, and final step after that is to determine where that mind comes from—the ground of being from which the ordinary, samsaric mind emerges, the mother that gives birth to the child of ordinary mind. This discovery of a self-arising state of primordial awareness, one that goes beyond ordinary, conceptual thought, is that with which the approach of Mahasandhi or Dzogchen is concerned. This final step, from the Dzogchen point of view is to discover the ground of being from which the mind arises and why great emphasis is placed on Preliminary Practices, or Ngondro. This ground of being is often personified as the Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra or Kuntuzangpo. In Zen, where everything seems to be a grunt or gesture, the floor is hit to indicate this state or ground of Primordial Being. The Tibetans have names for everything— isn’t that wonderful!! Clarity with words, and the clarity of no words that point to the heart essence of the Great Perfection.
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Joel Agee, Stuffs RedTurtle, Viorica Doina Neacsu and 7 others like this.
Anzelle Pieretti It's also known as Ati
June 12 at 10:31am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon Technically there is no term in Dzogchen for 'ground of being'. Ground of being is sort of a western translational gloss gone awry. Being in general is a conditioned extreme in the eyes of the buddhadharma.
June 12 at 10:36am · Like
Dannon Flynn Tell it to the Dalai Lama.
June 12 at 10:52am · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon Whether he wrote it or not, it's a common mistranslation of the Tibetan term 'gzhi', which never means 'ground' or 'ground of being'.
'Base' or 'basis' are more accurate, because that species of recognition is the basis for the path. Not an ontological ground.
June 12 at 11:04am · Like
Goose Saver Kyle, the terms were translated by Geshe Thupten Jinpa and Richard Barron (Chokyi Nyima).
June 12 at 11:28am · Like
Kyle Dixon Ah, yeah Barron translates gzhi as ground of being. I do like his translations though overall.
June 12 at 11:37am · Like · 1
Goose Saver In his rendering of the Nelug Dzö of Longchenpa (1308–1364 or possibly 1369).
June 12 at 11:48am · Like
Soh Hi Goose, your writing suggests that realizing that pristine awareness is the final step in Dzogchen and Mahamudra. While this may be the case for certain types of people, it is my experience, as well as many others in this group, that we realized that pristine awareness first before realizing anatta and emptiness (not just an intellectual understanding of anatta and emptiness but coming to direct realization of it). It is quite common to find people who have direct realization of unfabricated awareness/clarity, it is much more rare to find people who have direct realization of emptiness (twofold) or even anatta (firstfold). (Also have you read this before, I think you had, as this pretty much sums up my path and many others here: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html - our path begins with the realization of unfabricated awareness)
As Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm have said before, in the Dzogchen path, the initial recognition of rigpa is simply the initial recognition of unfabricated clarity - which is necessary to even begin to practice Dzogchen, while the realization of emptiness occurs at a later stage such as the 3rd vision of thodgal.
Awakening to Reality: Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
I understand very little of what Thusness has said. The path that Thusness descr... See More
June 12 at 11:54am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Soh The reason why all these realizations are necessary for us after realization of Awareness is that one must be cleansed of views of duality and inherency pertaining to Awareness. An issue is whether we are having a dualistic and inherent understanding of Awareness - this leads to all kinds of grasping, clinging, subsuming, efforting.
The whole 'ground of being' and manifestation being 'expressions of the ground of being' may be understood dualistically like in the case of I AMness (which is seen as the ultimate and unaffected source and substratum behind all phenomena).
Now regardless of Jax's sometimes extreme views (getting better day by day however), I think he wrote something nicely recently:
Brian Zey wrote: Content is awareness expressed. So all is awareness. 4 hrs · Like
Jackson Peterson wrote: Brian Zey, but content IS awareness. Not its expression. All phenomena are: 1. Empty 2. Cognitive presence 3. Energetic formations; all three at the same time as one Reality. 2 hrs · Like · 2
June 12 at 12:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
Si M Ba blat blat blat--whack whack whack--honk honk honk. What remains is Compassion and its flowering, Wisdom, which is kindness.
June 12 at 12:08pm · Edited · Like · 3
Soh Another thing is that this 'pure awareness' is realized in all religious traditions. If Buddha were only to teach about this then there not even be a need for Buddha at all. The upanishads would suffice. However, his refutation of an ultimate self is the collateral damage as Malcolm puts it, that is what distinguishes him from all other teachings. 'Awareness teaching' is not the main import of his view and message... what he really wants to teach us is anatta and emptiness/non-arising, as that is what liberates. That is - the true, empty nature of Awareness.
June 12 at 12:11pm · Like · 4
Dannon Flynn There is this phenomenon of folks who no matter what is said, no matter who says it, sing the same song, as if we haven't heard it before. But even so, I appreciate them for doing so, it is important. Yet, it sometimes takes away from the OP, but for others, it is helpful. So, carry on. Basis, Ground of Being, all are words. Translations, each one of us translates what each other one says.
June 12 at 12:17pm · Like
Dannon Flynn And how the caste system sucks, Methinks Buddha taught that.
June 12 at 12:20pm · Like
Goose Saver "To summarize, the source of suffering in our experience is our clinging to or misapprehension of mind and body in terms of some kind of self or ego. Through practice, we arrive at the realization of non-self, the lack of self-nature of mind and body. Then, in the Madhyamaka approach, we realize the emptiness of all phenomena, not just the mind and body of the individual….The next step is to discover mind as the source of all these phenomena and to realize the nature of that mind. The final step, from the Dzogchen point of view, is to discover the ground of being [gzhi] from which mind arises." HHDalai Lama
June 12 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
Soh I highly doubt that 'gzhi' actually means 'Awareness'. As realizing that is very, very common indeed, and is not the liberating factor.
I put the order like this (based on personal experience): first, realize Awareness, then realize non-duality of subject and object, then realize emptiness of self (anatta), then realize twofold emptiness. All are understood from Awareness - that is, the nature and essence of Awareness.
June 12 at 12:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti The teaching about the reversal of ordinary fixation sounds good to me right about now.
June 12 at 12:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
Soh In one of his talks, the Dalai Lama also said that recognition of clarity is very common - even among Hindus, etc, but the Buddhist sort of enlightenment is not just that
June 12 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon Posted this before too, but here is Malcolm commenting on the use of 'ground of being' in Dzogchen:
Malcolm wrote:
Again, if you are using the term of "ground of being", which is Christian theological term out of place in Dzogchen, you will run into many contradictions.
Jeeprs wrote:
Interestingly, there is a Wikipedia article called Ground of Being (Dzog'chen) (albeit with a caveat.)
Malcolm wrote:
The article you mentioned is a mess. First of all, the term that gzhi translates is sthana, not asraya. It just turns into a muddle from there.
In terms of the origins of the term, it was indeed coined by Tillich to show that "God must be called the infinite power of being which resists the threat of nonbeing." [Systematic Theology, Vol. pg. 64] You can see why such borrowing is tempting, "The ground of being has the character of self-manifestation; it has logos character" [Systematic Theology, Vol.1 pg. 158]
A large problem for people who are approaching Dzogchen is that they fall back into classical western philosophical categories. Indeed, Günther wrote once that Dzogchen essentially is not different than Parmenides's theory that whatever was contingent as non-being and whatever is permanent is being. Tillich writes:
"The Orphics, the Pythagoreans, Anaximander, Heraclitus, and Parmenides were driven to their philosophy by the awareness that the world they encountered lack ultimate reality. But only in Plato does the contrast between existential and the essential being become an ontological and ethical problem. Existence for Plato is the realm of mere opinion, error, and evil. It lacks true reality. True being is essential being and is present in the realm of eternal ideas, i.e., in essences. In order to reach essential being, man must rise above existence. He must return to the essential realm from which he fell into existence, In this way man's existence, is standing out of potentiality, is judged as a fall from what he essentially is. The potential is the essential, and to exist, i.e., to stand out of potentiality, is the lost of true essentiuality...In God there is no difference between essential and existential being. This implies the split is not ultimately valid and that is has no relevance for the ground of being itself. God is eternally what he is. [Systematic Theology, Vol.2 ppg. 21-22]
Examining this kind of presentation that the term "ground of being" arose out of, it is easy to see why those who are not trained in Indo-Tibetan scholastics as well as Western Philosophy will be very attracted to terms like "ground of being" relationship to the term "basis" or gzhi.
The gzhi is strictly defined as lacking any essence, any svabhava, in Dzogchen texts. Indeed its potentiality is made possible because of its empty nature. Without that coreless core, the processes of the basis by which the five lights shine out and so on are simply not possible. Emptiness, naturelessness, the absence of being, the absence of reality, the absence of extremes is precisely what makes the basis originally pure. As the sgra thal gyur tantra states:
"Since there is no basis or foundation, dwell in emptiness."
The commentary merely notes that this line confirms the quality of the non-existence of one's mind.
And further it states:
"Due to being free from extremes, the middle does not exist."
June 12 at 12:24pm · Like · 3
Anzelle Pieretti How about just connecting to the energy without all this big words which seem to just confuse ppl?
June 12 at 12:27pm · Like · 6
Brian Zey Anzelle Pieretti, here, here!!!
June 12 at 12:45pm · Like · 3
Goose Saver We are here. And thank you all for the inexhaustible good humor!
June 12 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
Brian Zey You are there, I'm here. If you were here I wouldn't alone in this room.
June 12 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti I think ppl are attached to their confusion, haha . .
June 12 at 12:50pm · Like · 3
Anzelle Pieretti It's the cosmic joke of the universe
June 12 at 12:51pm · Like · 2
Brian Zey My confusion is the only thing that is inherently existing, as far as I can tell.
June 12 at 12:51pm · Like · 3
Dannon Flynn But for those b
June 12 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
Dannon Flynn oops.. But for those not trained in Buddhist or Western theology or philosophy, are their such problems with words? Scholars always have such problems... And yet, yogis like me rely on such scholars. But only until we need to let them go and look into our own experience.
June 12 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti It's OK to forget the Dharma made of concepts.
June 12 at 1:25pm · Like · 3
Si M Ba Since all phenomena are actually non-arisings, best to live simply, Compassionately, with as few needs as possible. Art is long but life is short. What point is there in realizing non-self if one remains an asshole, talking talking propping up one's story? it seems to me that ego-dog has many tricks it plays for its bone of substance and it loves to build for itself an ego-dog, dog house made of words; especially terminology. lots to bark about there. So much energy to expend running in circles chasing its own tail. And that bone! So juicy once it splinters and ego-dog can savour its own blood while it chews away. So, how does one explain all this wisdom to a hurt child? With kindness. How does one do Phowa for someone with no back ground in Buddhism? With Love. Talk and debate are endless. Ego-dog loves to roll in that shit. At the end of the day though, all phenomena remain non-arisings and the only thing left to do is be kind.
June 12 at 1:29pm · Like · 4
Dannon Flynn Don't forget though that they do have a good point, even though it begins to sound like barking. They are speaking to practitioners. We can speak to the children if they can't, but only if we understand what we are talking about.
June 12 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
Marta Wrona 'What point is there in realizing non-self if one remains an asshole' would such scenario be even possible when realization depends on merit?
June 12 at 1:57pm · Like · 3
Anzelle Pieretti Assholes get to reincarnate as rats
June 12 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
Goose Saver Yes, one can experience emptiness and remain this or that, and one can gain powers of omniscience but never gain Enlightenment. This is why we do preliminary practices over and over and over again.
June 12 at 2:05pm · Like · 3
Dannon Flynn Good Goose!
June 12 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
Goose Saver To insult me--oh crap--who cares I'll just go flapping in the ocean waves. But to insult HHDL with quotes from Thusness or suchness is pure stupidity.
June 12 at 2:10pm · Like · 3
Soh Strange Goose Saver that you seem to suggest quoting from 'Thusnes' is an insult to HHDL. As I pointed out earlier, HHDL clearly distinguished the realization of clarity/awareness from the realization of emptiness. In one of the youtube videos he clearly stated that realizing this awareness/clarity is commonly found, even among Hindus, but the Buddhist realization is not just that. He considers the realization of the clarity aspect of mind to be merely the 'relative nature of mind', while realizing its emptiness is to realize the ultimate nature of mind.
Plus, it is not just 'Thusness' who went through this process - far from it. Many of us, including myself, and so many others here have gone through the same process. I could have just as easily quoted myself. We can say from our personal experience that realizing Awareness is only the first step and by no means the final realization. Emptiness and no-self is a much subtler realization.
June 12 at 2:38pm · Edited · Like · 4
Anzelle Pieretti It's OK to forget the Dharma that's just a heavy load.
June 12 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
Soh HHDL:
http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=413
We surely do possess some thing called mind, but how are we to recognize its existence? The real and essential mind is what is to be found when the entire load of gross obstructions and aberrations (i.e. sense impressions, memories, etc.) has been cleared away. Discerning this aspect of real mind, we shall discover that, unlike external objects, its true nature is devoid of form or color; nor can we find any basis of truth for such false and deceptive notions as that mind originated from this or that, or that it will move from here to there, or that it is located in such-and-such a place. When it comes into contact with no object mind is like a vast, boundless void, or like a serene, illimitable ocean. When it encounters an object it at once has cognizance of it, like a mirror instantly reflecting a person who stands in front of it. The true nature of mind consists not only in taking clear cognizance of the object but also in communicating a concrete experience of that object to the one experiencing it.* Normally, our forms of sense cognition, such as eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc., perform their functions on external phenomena in a manner involving gross distortion. Knowledge resulting from sense cognition, being based on gross external phenomena, is also of a gross nature. When this type of gross stimulation is shut out, and when concrete experiences and clear cognizance arise from within, mind assumes the characteristics of infinite void similar to the infinitude of space. But this void is not to be taken as the true nature of mind. We have become so habituated to consciousness of the form and color of gross objects that, when we make concentrated introspection into the nature of mind, it is, as I have said, found to be a vast, limitless void free from any gross obscurity or other hindrances. Nevertheless, this does not mean that we have discerned the subtle, true nature of the mind. What has been explained above concerns the state of mind in relation to the concrete experience and clear cognizance by the mind which are its function, but it describes only the relative nature of mind.
There are in addition several other aspects and states of mind. In other words, taking mind as the supreme basis, there are many attributes related to it. Just as an onion consists of layer upon layer that can be peeled away, so does every sort of object have a number of layers; and this is no less true of the nature of mind as explained here; it, too, has layer within layer, slate within state.
All compounded things are subject to disintegration. Since experience and knowledge are impermanent and subject to disintegration, the mind, of which they are functions (nature), is not something that remains constant and eternal. From moment to moment it undergoes change and disintegration. This transience of mind is one aspect of its nature. However, as we have observed, its true nature has many aspects, including consciousness of concrete experience and cognizance of objects. Now let us make a further examination in order to grasp the meaning of the subtle essence of such a mind. Mind came into existence because of its own cause. To deny that the origination of mind is dependent on a cause, or to say that it is a designation given as a means of recognizing the nature of mind aggregates, is not correct. With our superficial observance, mind, which has concrete experience and clear cognizance as its nature, appears to be a powerful, independent, subjective, completely ruling entity. However, deeper analysis will reveal that this mind, possessing as it does the function of experience and cognizance, is not a self-created entity but Is dependent on other factors for its existence. Hence it depends on something other than itself. This non-independent quality of the mind substance is its true nature which in turn is the ultimate reality of the self.
Happiness, Karma and Mind by His Holiness the Dalai Lama
www.lamayeshe.com
Happiness, Karma and Mind, His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Teaching on how to gain happiness and the path to liberation from suffering
June 12 at 2:40pm · Edited · Like · 5 · Remove Preview
Anzelle Pieretti The link you just posted isn't working . . .
June 12 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
Soh Strange.. it seems to work for me
June 12 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti It's working now, thx.
June 12 at 2:41pm · Unlike · 2
Si M Ba it sounds soooooo much better when the Dalai Lama says it. volumes are spoken and even more alluded to in just a few paragraphs, giving one supreme confidence in him as an unerring guide.
June 12 at 2:42pm · Like · 1
Soh By the way I fully concur with Kyle - 'ground of being' is a bad term to translate gZhi. gZhi means basis, and is of the essence, nature, energy. It does not mean 'ground of being'
June 12 at 2:47pm · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon The essence of the basis which is original purity i.e. emptiness free of extremes actually forbids 'being'.
June 12 at 2:49pm · Unlike · 2
Soh When the Dzogchen teachers (HHDL included) speak of gZhi, and then translators translates it to 'ground of being', it can be skewed towards resolving everything in ground of being. But what the teachers/teachings want is to resolve both mind and phenomena to empty-clarity - gZhi, which does not mean the sort of non-Buddhist source and substratum for all phenomena - ground of being all too often becomes equated with 'Brahman' and the likes. This is where the message gets lost in translation.
June 12 at 3:13pm · Edited · Like · 2
Si M Ba Body clothed in a no-cloth robe/
Feet clad in turtle's fur boots/
I bend my bow of rabbit horn/
And prepare to shoot/
The devil, ignorance/
That's Han Shan or Shih Te, I forget which. Those two rascals who would write their poetry down on rocks or pieces of paper, tied to trees--only to be washed away in the next storm. We only have some of their poems because a stalwart disciple would follow behind and collect them.
When people asked for the truth, one would sweep his broom furiously, stirring up dust and then when everyone started to sneeze, he would say, "Just there! When the sneeze happens! Did you catch it?" Whilst the other would shyly unscroll his scroll and revealing it to be without words on either side, would wait for the surprised look and then say, "AH yes, there it is! Quickly now, or you'll miss it!"
June 12 at 2:50pm · Edited · Like
Kyle Dixon The basis is also only called 'the basis' because it hasn't been recognized. However once recognized the basis immediately becomes the path. So in this way it can be seen that the basis is really little more than a literary device. It isn't anything real or substantial, which is another reason why 'ground of being' is an inappropriate translation.
June 12 at 3:01pm · Unlike · 2
Anzelle Pieretti Longchempa calls it the all-encompassing ground.
June 12 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
John Tan I m not even a dust to HHDL. Pls do not increase my karma, Soh.
June 12 at 3:05pm · Unlike · 1
Soh Yeah I'm not even comparing you to HHDL. Just stating the facts that many of us have certain insights which totally does not contradict what HHDL is saying (in fact is in alignment), though Goose Saver mistakenly sees a contradiction - furthermore a bad translation of 'gZhi' as 'ground of being' is very misleading.
June 12 at 3:10pm · Edited · Like
Kyle Dixon Longchenpa never spoke English so it is the translators who refer to it [the gzhi] as what they choose.
June 12 at 3:10pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
Soh If one realizes 'All phenomena are: 1. Empty 2. Cognitive presence 3. Energetic formations; all three at the same time as one Reality.' - that is, gZhi dawns as wisdom (rigpa), or realizing the non-dual of kadag and lhungrub, that is far from simply realizing unfabricated awareness - which is only the clarity aspect, an initial recognition of rigpa but far from the full measure or realization of rigpa (as Loppon Namdrol explained clearly before).
When we realize the clarity/awareness aspect, and take it to be some sort of source and substratum or ground of being, then we have reified it into a metaphysical essence like Brahman of Hinduism. This is why the important next step is to realize no-self emptiness, and then automatically, the non-dual of emptiness and luminosity - which is what the realization of gZhi points to.
June 12 at 3:19pm · Edited · Like
Anzelle Pieretti That's how Khenpo Namdrol Rinpoche taught it and Sangye Khandro translated it in the teachings which are authentic teachings and is good enough for me.
June 12 at 3:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon For most of these teachers English is their second language, and they'll also simply follow trends in translation. The ground of being thing is just a trend, there's no part of the Tibetan term which suggests 'being'.
The actual ground of being is the alaya [kun gzhi] because it s the basis of existence and non-existence. The primordial basis is free from extremes.
June 12 at 3:28pm · Unlike · 2
Soh How it is translated is not as important as how it is understood. Terms like 'ground of being' is quite misleading because it connotes some kind of substantialist source and substratum. 'Ground/basis' is better, but still, it can be misunderstood without proper introduction/explanation/etc
June 12 at 3:28pm · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon Regarding the gzhi, from the Rigpa Rangshar Tantra:
"The mandala is completed in the nonconceptual path,
freeing the bonds of proliferation of thoughts and so on,
free from the empty phenomena of intentions and so on,
beyond being and nonbeing, negative and positive objects, and so on,
liberated from phenomena that fall into an extreme."
From the Unwritten Tantra:
"Since my self-originated wisdom originally is pure of delusion, it is beyond the extremes of being and non-being."
And then addressing the alaya [kun gzhi] which is ignorance, as the actual 'ground of being':
From the sgra thal gyur Tantra:
"Here I will explain the all-basis [skt. alaya, tib. kun gzhi] to start off:
It is the ground of all phenomena [being] and non-phenomena [non-being]."
From the Rigpa Rangshar Tantra:
"The all-basis is the real ignorance [skt. avidya, tib. ma rig pa]."
June 12 at 3:38pm · Unlike · 2
Yor Sunyata So Soh, I have a question. This realization of emptiness. Is it something the mind begins to do or something it stops doing? If I see an object, I know I am not actually seeing what we label it. I see no substance, essence or anything the label could actually refer to. Anything and everything are empty appearances. To me it is something the mind has stopped doing. It no longer "feels" a self within the body or anything else for that matter, nor can it possibly begin doing so again because the error has so thoroughly been seen through, both intellectually and emotionally/mentally. But is there more to it than that?
June 12 at 5:10pm · Like
Si M Ba dunno. try slamming the car door on your hand. if you are still established in equal mind awareness of non-self, give your non-back a pat with your smashed non-hand. Here's a tip: for every hour of reading and studying, 10 hours of sitting.
June 12 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata I think that is good advice, Si M Ba
June 12 at 5:27pm · Like · 1
Si M Ba It is what my teacher advised Yor, as well as a day long sit for too much talking about Dharma aspects that are supposed to be secret.
There is a tendency in our consumer culture to be overly aquisitive. We learn about something, and some new terminology to go with it, do some practive, get a "feel" for it and then believe we have it. Its ours. Mine.
We become far too casual about talking about it. We forget the caluses on Milarepa's butt.
June 12 at 5:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
Soh The realization of emptiness is not something mind does nor is it something that mind stops doing. It is a direct realization into the way things are - empty of self, empty of inherent existence. When we investigate our experience, we discover there is no agent, self, watcher, doer, behind or within experience.. furthermore we can discover that whatever dependently originates is in truth non-arising, empty. It is a form of direct experiential discovery, not a form of intellectual understanding.
Realization leads to release, and you can say that certain afflictive mental activities simply ceases (however, realization is not the cessation itself, but precedes the cessation). For example when realization of anatta occurs, there is a release from the mental doing of I-making - i.e. all activities that pertains to grasping at a self, centerpoint, agent, ceases. In place of that, there is gapless, self-luminous, direct experience of 'in seeing just the seen, in hearing just sound' without any sense of a perceiver. When twofold emptiness is realized, grasping at experience as real and having arising/abiding/ceasing is also released, and there is simply a direct taste of everything as appearing yet illusory and non-arising.
You asked 'is there more to it than that' - it really depends, as I wrote, there are different degrees of self/Self. Releasing the sense of personality is not the same as releasing the delusion of subject/object dichotomy, or releasing the sense of an inherently existing Self/agent/etc, and twofold emptiness is also different.
A series of realizations unfolded for me, and for each insight there is a corresponding direct taste and release of different constructs. There is also a difference between 'realization' and 'experience'. I wrote in depth on these subjects in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html
Awakening to Reality: Experience, Realization, View, Practice and Fruition
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Found this to be a very true and helpful post. Thanks for writing it.Also thanks... See More
June 12 at 6:53pm · Edited · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Goose Saver Soh states “…your writing suggests that realizing that pristine awareness is the final step in Dzogchen and Mahamudra. While this may be the case for certain types of people, it is my experience, as well as many others in this group, that we realized that pristine awareness first before realizing anatta and emptiness (not just an intellectual understanding of anatta and emptiness but coming to direct realization of it).”
Soh, Manjushrimitra received the transmission of all Dzogchen teachings from Garab Dorje and subdivided them into three series: Semde, Longde and Mennagde. HHDL is addressing here semde, that is the "mind series" and how the progression is realized through the different Buddhist schools. Sorry, I fail to understand what you and your friends do in the dharma. The delusions are endless, we vow to cut through them all.
June 12 at 8:59pm · Like
Yor Sunyata Soh Thank you. That was very helpful.
June 12 at 9:37pm · Like
Soh I'm pretty sure that Manjushrimitra and Garab Dorje is not talking about 'Awareness' as being some sort of final realization. If they are, then their insights are really not novel at all, as all sorts of non-Buddhists even before Buddha have already realized Awareness. However the explanation of gZhi is not simply the 'clarity' or 'awareness'.
As Loppon Namdrol clearly explained, recognition of clarity is really only an initial recognition of rigpa, not yet the realization of emptiness (occurs in third vision of thodgal), and not the full measure of rigpa which is realizing the nondual of kadag and lhungrub.
June 12 at 9:43pm · Like
Si M Ba Most lamas and truly accomplished practitioners are extremely reluctant to discuss any of this unless one is a close student. There are very good reasons for this. too much loose talk about something creates a kind of large group thought bubble around it. It becomes just another, "thing," to cram into one's daily life. Once sacred, secret, powerful information is bubbled as it were into group think, it no longer matters how precise any translation about it is because at that point it is just a semblance of the actual transmission and any subsequent realization is just so much mental masturbation. My own teacher would hit us, hard, if he caught us talking amongst ourselves about these teachings and then challenge us on our realization of this essence. when no one could come forward, he would basically say in his gruff Tibetan, "Exactly! Practice, don't talk." We are far too comfortable. Few of us have suffered or risked dying to protect these teachings. And here's the thing, if you havent actually realized something, no one is fooled by you no matter how many words you say. As the Amish say, "Many words in the lie is hid." no matter how tightly you grip the exact, correct translation of something, it is not going to save you. For that you need to open your hand.
June 12 at 9:44pm · Like · 3
Ej Alex There are also people out there who are really thankful that there is someone who doesn´t make a mystery out of all this stuff, but speaks clearly, is distinguishing subtle nuances clearly. To speak about such things can be an obstacle for certain people, but not everyone. There do exist so many paths because people are different. There is a way of going beyond words and symbols, even without a teacher who is standing behind you. Not everyone can be lucky and have a Sangha/Teacher/Dharma Center in his neighbourhood. Does that mean you have bad Karma, shouldn´t practice or engaging in understanding the teachings? I don´t think so. Reasoning and talking about this big words is an important part of the path. I´m glad that we live during the information age and have access to all this information. I can understand that someone doesn´t want to talk openly, but that´s not the purpose of this group as I see it. Secretiveness is in my opinion outdated.
June 12 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
Goose Saver Unless we unpack our views conceptually and experimentally, we struggle in delusion. Do not be misguided by words. The theory of semde transcends all the various levels of yanas, all the composed and contaminated aspects of the so-called “true path” which are bound by a rigid concept of apprehending. This is nothing more than the power or play of the mind. There is no clarity in words as there is no fixed dharma. In mengagde, as the glow (eDangs) of originally pure essence (Ngo-Bo), the great freedom from concepts and expressions, arises it is free from elaborations.
June 12 at 11:15pm · Like
Soh Si M Ba, I'm not sure if you're referring to me, but as Tommy McNally used to say, this group is not like most other groups - there are quite a number here who are willing to share their own insights and experiences. It is not good to presume that everyone here are not speaking from experiential realizations. And many of us do recognise in each other our experiences - as we share many similarities in terms of experiences, insights, realizations in our paths. It is a joy indeed, to speak and hear of experiences with other practitioners. As long as it is a sharing in an appropriate setting or situation, I think it is good.
June 12 at 11:30pm · Edited · Like · 3
Soh Of course if one isn't sure about something then it is better not to bullshit others and act as if one has realized. That would be bad.
June 12 at 11:33pm · Like · 3
Robert Dominik "Sometimes there is bliss in a row of yogins, there is bliss in comparing experiental realization." ~ Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
June 13 at 1:33am · Like
Robert Dominik What I've seen in this thread was that some people presented their views on what Dzogchen and Mahamudra are about and some people liked it. Then some people presented this as an erroneous understanding od Dharma. Then some of the people from the first group said that all debates and views are useless, conceptual. So... it's ok when they present and like their views but when someone challenges them, then its all wrong and just talking and studying instead of 24/7 meditation and real non-conceptual insight (which is funny because we all are debating this on facebook). Also we heard something about real masters and people with real experience (instead of just ConceptualYana) but then I still see people who are not Dzogchen masters arguing what Semde or (!) Upadesa are about! XD Anyway that's how the whole thing appeared to me. I also perceived some aggressivenes in this thread (from people who talked about love and being kind). Does my post resolve these things? Not. Are these my projections? Possibly. Is this skillful? I don't know. But I felt like pointing out how as a bystander I felt about this discussion.
June 13 at 1:45am · Edited · Like · 2
Stuffs RedTurtle I am just a low level practitioner with little to no experience in things that most people here speak of. However that doesn't make one uniformed to the context implied in language. Not pointing at anyone in particular in this thread, everyone very nice, but with certain "experienced" practitioners in this group, their words convey a stinky air of superiority, so whether it is intended on the surface or not, your words betray you. I agree with Pete. Let's play nice . All in this together.
June 13 at 1:48am · Like
Stuffs RedTurtle But the information always appreciated, and the debates are informative, so thank you all.
Maybe more emphasis on how to get there, rather than what is or isn't. People knock Jax a lot, but from what I can tell from his group his followers are having some pretty interesting Thogal insights. I was told not to practice anything I found on the inet by my teacher and am heeding his advice, but seems like maybe Jax has more experience than people here give him credit for
June 13 at 1:56am · Edited · Like
Anzelle Pieretti I get what you mean Stuffs RedTurtle and am so glad this wasn't my introduction to Buddhism or I would have been totally turned off.
June 13 at 2:01am · Like · 1
Soh Stuffs RedTurtle: if you got the impression from my posts some 'air of superiority' then that certainly isn't what I intended.
However, it would be very pitiable indeed, if one has some realization of 'Awareness' and thinks that it is a final realization. I say for a fact that so many of us here have seen that realization of Awareness is really only an initial realization. There are many pitfalls to that - Awareness becomes distorted and clung to due to ignorance, due to views of inherency and duality. If we treat this as a final realization, then we have cut off all our progress and possibility for liberation. What liberates is not the 'clarity' aspect.
June 13 at 2:11am · Edited · Like · 2
Stuffs RedTurtle Oh, Soh , I wasn't talking about you, or Kyle, or anyone else in this thread.
June 13 at 2:12am · Unlike · 3
Stuffs RedTurtle The past few months of meditation and serious contemplation has been very humbling for me from studying my mind through Dhamma. Not but. 6 months prior I was a very arrogant jerk, and prob still carry those tendencies unbeknownst to me somewhere, but in some people even outside of this forum it is very evident in thier expressions to other people, and I wonder how, if on an exp level they can be so arrogant if they have actually looked at thier own mind. I am in a constant state of disbelief at myself recently at all of the negativity and projections that go through my mind and actions on a daily basis.
June 13 at 2:16am · Like
Yor Sunyata Hmm. Who would even want to bullshit others about realizations? If they take Buddhism seriously, that would be really bad karma, and also contrary to Buddhist teachings. If they do not take Buddhism seriously, one would think they do not understand it very well, and this lack of understanding would be very visible from what they write.
June 13 at 2:19am · Unlike · 3
Robert Dominik "People knock Jax a lot, but from what I can tell from his group his followers are having some pretty interesting Thogal insights." <- Well we'll just have to see if any people following Jaxchen attain Rainbow Bodies. For now it's better to stick to teachers from authentic lineages (in which people had such attainments). Also I heard that despite Jax's claims that CHNNR told him he could teach people... some wrote emails to CHNNR and he said that it isn't true. When we add to that other concerns about Jax... I dunno. I woudln't like to engage in unnecessary slander but I would advise people to be very cautious when people broadcast innermost, secret teachings on their facebook walls.
June 13 at 2:27am · Edited · Like · 2
Stuffs RedTurtle Yor Sunyata, I'm not exp enough to know, but for myself coming out of a weird exp before any real encounter with a teacher and then self educating through direct pointing groups and books, it might just be misunderstanding and then a human tendency to blow a peak exp out of proportion, for me the last time was finding what knows and assuming that was anatta, which Soh exp clearly it's not.
June 13 at 2:27am · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Yeah Robert I agree, I was told not to delve into ANY practice from internet, so I'm sticking to flesh and blood lama.
June 13 at 2:29am · Like · 1
Soh Jax's views used to be completely indistinguishable from Vedanta's substantialist views. Recently it seems to be more nonsubstantialist. Just a recent observation, I might be wrong.
June 13 at 2:30am · Like
Yor Sunyata Right, but then you would not be bullshitting. You would merely be making an honest mistake. Everybody makes mistakes. As for my realizations, I know what I experience. I do not know with absolute certainty what levels of realization the experience corresponds to. For this reasons, I have asked teachers I trust, such as Shinzen Young, to evaluate them.
June 13 at 2:31am · Like · 1
Yor Sunyata Soh, it seems to me that Jax listened to you and learned from it. An admirable quality.
June 13 at 2:32am · Like
Robert Dominik Dunno. There was one time when his views were getting more nonsubstantialist - he even started saying that Brahman is false and Advaita is mistaken. Then he started to appreciate Vedanta again. Who knows?
June 13 at 2:32am · Like
Soh Yes I think it's not right to teach something that requires lineage transmission unless permission is given by a teacher. I'm not too sure if Jax has permission to teach. Perhaps it would be better if he just drop the 'Dzogchen' and teach what he knows
June 13 at 2:32am · Like · 2
Robert Dominik Anyway Chogyal Namkhai Norbu likes to tell a particular story about his trip to Mount Kailash with some of his students. He says that some of his students wanted him to teach them secret techniques (guess which ones hahahahahaha) but he said that they aren't ready and he will decide when is the right time. Then one of them went as a far as suggesting that Rinpoche doesn't have any compassion and is selfish, wants to keep the teachings for himself. Then later they started to reading ALOUD a book about these secret techniques in a bus (there were other, random passengers there) - a book that some random guy from San Francisco printed and distributed.
June 13 at 2:35am · Edited · Like · 1
Yor Sunyata I am a bit doubtful about transmissions. One the one hand, it seems very wise to have teachers who can make sure the student does not make mistakes on the path. On the other hand, it is also very convenient for the teaching office as an institution, and it can easily be abused, as we have seen in many religions. It is very convenient for Catholic priests, for instance, that Catholics have to confess mortal sins to a priest in order to be forgiven. That means they are necessary and may enjoy job security. At the moment, I am agnostic about empowerments and transmissions.
June 13 at 2:39am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon The fact that people are sharing their thogal insights on Jax's facebook group is frightening. Whatever they are sharing is merely grasping, they have no connection to a lineage and no transmission.
June 13 at 2:40am · Like
Robert Dominik It's funny that people are so into secret techniques and the definite view of traditions like Dzogchen but they aren't so eager to do basic practices, get a Direct Introduction from a qualified master, sing Song of Vajra (from my experience it is really, really powerful), do Ganapujas or other collective and secondary practices. All the Tibetan teachers say that these are very important and all the practitioners of Dzogchen in the past acknowledged that. I even heard western people (strangely they were "students" of Jax) who dismissed all these as unnecessary cultural baggage. If it was so then Tibetan Rinpoches who teach Dzogchen would be deluded and mistaken about Dzogchen - and so their students (among those - the students who criticise practices they view as non-essential, people like Jax etc) would be investing time in deluded Dharma.
June 13 at 2:41am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata Well, the Buddha himself did not come from a lineage, and was rejected by some people for that reason. I forget which sutta speaks about the student who comes to the Buddha to learn, and he likes what he hears, but when he hears that the Buddha has no teacher and can point to no lineage, he leaves. The student's name was "Almost, but not quite".
June 13 at 2:43am · Like
Kyle Dixon Yeah, they have zero preliminaries to substantiate their path, no foundation due to the fact that Jax downplays that aspect of the teachings. It's really quite foolish to think you can just join a facebook group and learn a man ngag sde teaching and start practicing at home. What a mess.
June 13 at 2:43am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon The practice in question is found within the context of Vajrayana, ergo lineage is crucial.
June 13 at 2:44am · Like
Robert Dominik Yeah but Buddha did not teach all his teachings openly (like creating facebook groups everybody can join or writing on his wall). Sometimes he taught people only moral advice. Also as Mahayana we should accept Mahayana canon and that Buddha taught Hinayana to Sravakas but gave different teachings for Bodhisattvas. + as Kyle said - in Vajrayana lineage is everything.
June 13 at 2:45am · Edited · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata Yes, so it is said. Perhaps it is true. I certainly would not presume otherwise. Unfortunately, there are no Dzogchen teachers in my country, so books is all I have.
June 13 at 2:45am · Like
Kyle Dixon Many teachers give teachings via webcast this day in age, that is a good route to go if you do not have access to a teacher in person. Good to at least make a connection that way, and then perhaps one day you can meet that teacher, or a teacher and receive teachings.
June 13 at 2:47am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik Anyway the Dzogchen tradition says that getting Direct Introduction is a Sine Qua Non of practising Dzogchen. No DI - no Dzogchen practice. How hard can it be getting a DI? All you need to do is just watch a live webcast by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. It's not that hard xD Also CHNNR is quite an open teacher and covers all the topics that beginners need in his webcasts (and can help more experienced practitioners too). Well I'm not saying CHNNR is the only good teacher of Dzogchen there is, because there are certainly other qualified lamas - but his teachings are the easiest to access.
June 13 at 2:51am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata There is no Hinayana ( http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha140.htm ). And some of the stories told about the origin of Mahayana texts, such as being kept secret since the time of the historical Buddha, are demonstrably false. The texts DO NOT stem from the time of the Buddha, just like it would be impossible to believe that Harry Potter was written in the 17th century. This does not mean that they don't have value, though.
The myth of Hinayana
www.budsas.org
Catushparishatsutra"Erstens: Gefallen zu finden an und anzunehmen die niedrigen ... See More
June 13 at 2:48am · Like · Remove Preview
Kyle Dixon Buddha Sakyamuni is also held to be a nirma?akaya emanation of Vajradhara, who is in turn an emanation of the primordial buddha Samantabhadra.
June 13 at 2:48am · Like · 1
Soh Yor Sunyata, can you expand on "being kept secret since the time of the historical Buddha, are demonstrably false" because many Mahayana believers would insist that it cannot be demonstrably false. That is, some of them do actually buy into the myths that they are kept in other realms or in the sea, etc. (personally I do not really believe in these myths - though I can accept that teachings not taught in a historical context can still be considered Buddhavacana)
June 13 at 2:50am · Edited · Like
Robert Dominik About CHNNR and teaching Dzogchen... he created Santi Maha Sangha program exactly for the purpose that his students could pass the teachings on. I doubt that he could give permission for teaching for people outside of this program. So this probably resolves the topic.
June 13 at 2:50am · Like
Yor Sunyata Well, if you read a text that claims to be from the 17th century, but it uses 20th century langauge, mentions ipods, computers, geographical locations that did not exist in the 17th century, then we can be certain it does not come from that time period.
June 13 at 2:51am · Unlike · 1
Yor Sunyata You could rationalize it and say that the people who wrote it in the 17th century could see the future, and wrote with language from the future. That is unprovable and would be typical for fundamentalists. But why give only Buddhist texts such special treatment? It would undermine all of science if applied to any text that claims to be ancient.
June 13 at 2:53am · Like
Yor Sunyata Suffice it to say, there is not a single historian or scholar in the entire world of academia who thinks the Mahayana sutras come from the time period of the Buddha.
June 13 at 2:54am · Like
Robert Dominik "At the moment, I am agnostic about empowerments and transmissions." <- So you can stick to sutric teachings. Vajrayana is pretty clear about the need for empowerments and transmissions. If we are to dismiss it.. why not dismiss the rest of the Vajrayana alltogether on the same grounds? /
June 13 at 2:55am · Like
Yor Sunyata This, of course, does not negate the insights in them. And it may be they stem from visions (sambhogakaya) and are true in a spiritual sense. I am convinced that many of them are true, because the insights in them are profound.
June 13 at 2:55am · Like · 2
Robert Dominik We could in the same manner say that Pali Canon does not come from the time period of the Buddha. The facts are that the oldest scriptures found contain both Hinayana and Mahayana. Also the interpretation that Mahayana is a later invention was established in the Western View by the scholars from XIX century and the Western historiography. Does that mean that it's valid? Let's be honest here - Western historians even suggested that Buddha lived in the 4th or 3th BC century and not in 6th and 5th century BC. But latest archeological data proved that wrong.
June 13 at 2:57am · Like
Yor Sunyata Robert Dominik Well, think there are profound insights in the teachings. I do not deny that I may need a transmission, and I will do what is needed to get one. But having been raised in an untrue religion, and used years to research it, I know something about authoritarian structures and how they perpetuate themselves through time. And so I am agnostic. BTW, I took the liberty of asking Buddha Avalokitesvara for the empowerment/transmission I needed to benefit from the book Nang Jang (Buddhahood without meditation) during meditation. I had an incredibly powerful experience a fraction of a second after I did that. I questioned a Tibetan lama about this happening, and he said "That was an empowerment".
June 13 at 2:59am · Like · 5
Yor Sunyata As for western scholars, I don't wish to argue with you. If you take the time to read their works, you will see their reasoning, and it is quite persuasive. It is not due to some bias against Buddhism (or Christianity, as Christians think). It has to do with the scientific method, which is created to overcome human bias and determine what actually happened.
June 13 at 3:01am · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Wow Yor, that's pretty cool, I didn't even know that could be done. Lol, I got to that part in the book and said, oops, well, it being in my hands is empowerment enough I will have to apologize to Buddha for reading it without permission, ask him and reread it
June 13 at 3:11am · Like
Yor Sunyata I didn't know it could be done either, and did not (and do not) know for sure if there even is such a being. But I thought, "what the hell, why not try?" Since I didn't and do not have access to a Dzogchen teacher, I really had no other option.
June 13 at 3:14am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik Not everyone is so fortunate to have a strong connection with Avalokitesvara
June 13 at 3:15am · Like
Robert Dominik About Dzogchen - getting a DI nowadays is very easy if only one is interested in it (people in the past had to make dangerous jorneys - many miles on foot across mountains and wilderness), so it's hard to use "I have no opportunity of getting a DI" as an excuse
June 13 at 3:16am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata I don't have a strong connection. I simply tried something that spontaneously appeared as an idea during meditation. And something happened as a result. It could have been my mind playing tricks. I don't know. I love the book, though. I actually revere it, because of the quite obvious truths in it, and the lucid way in which it explains them.
June 13 at 3:18am · Like · 2
Stuffs RedTurtle That makes me wonder about that weird old exp I had after praying to Buddha and Hhdl.. He he , Hmm strange stuff in this world
June 13 at 3:18am · Like
Yor Sunyata Yes, the world is strange and wonderful And filled with suffering
June 13 at 3:19am · Like · 2
Soh I also encountered Avalokitesvara in an incredibly blissful state in sleep, was told about compassion, after that I woke up. I wasn't praying or anything.
June 13 at 3:20am · Edited · Like · 4
Robert Dominik Also... it's possible that we have some connections with certain teachings or texts due to past good karma and merit. CHNNR says that it is not a coincidence that people are interested in Dzogchen. Still he says that having some interest or intuition of one or two things is not like perfectly realising all the teachings due to hearing random phrase. So he advises people to better get correct transmission. Doesn't necessarily have to be through him - as I said there are other qualified teachers. But he is giving DI by a live internet webcast and is most accessible...
June 13 at 3:20am · Like · 2
Kyle Dixon Yor, You could have a strong connection from past lives though. For example I had noticeable experiences while doing Green Tara practice for the very first time, and did not have any connection to her prior to that. So perhaps you have a connection to Avalokitesvara or Mahakala.
June 13 at 3:20am · Edited · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata I didn't encounter him. I didn't see an image. It really difficult to try to articulate exactly what happened. It was more like lots of stuff happening in experience dropped away, and what was in the background was illuminated. At any rate, it could have been my mind playing tricks on me. I will first receive an online transmission from Namkhai Norbu. Later, when I have the option, I will go on a Dzogchen retreat. I do not care how the texts originated. There is no doubt in my mind that they contain truth.
June 13 at 3:24am · Like · 2
Robert Dominik My personal experience is that I just being near Rinpoche (like guarding his house at night) had a very positive effect on my practise (the first time I had a fully lucid dream of clarity + foreseen a future event in a dream - also my practice of GuruYoga seemed to be much more efficient than before in terms of time spent in the state of GuruYoga). Even webcasts - I find it very refreshing for practice to just get a DI again and listen to the teachings I heard for the second or third time. It just might be so that something clicks that didn't click the last time
June 13 at 3:24am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata Yes, I have also had experiences merely listening to teachers online, and even more so in real life. But it may simply be ASMR. I am not sure.
June 13 at 3:26am · Like
Kyle Dixon Yes you don't have to actually encounter a full body apparition of the deity to receive an experience associated with him/her. Whatever nyam you had after evoking Avalokitesvara was the contact. I highly doubt it was your mind playing tricks on you, for you would not be able to readily reproduce such an experience.
June 13 at 3:27am · Like · 1
Kyle Dixon But that is good news that you're planning to receive transmission from ChNN, I think it will be very beneficial for you. That is what I did, and I then went to meet him later.
June 13 at 3:28am · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata Well, Kyle, the fruits have been positive. I am not merely thinking in terms of realizations, but the enormous increase in compassion that I have been experiencing the last few years (it made a low carb, Atkins fan like I used to be, become a vegetarian and then a vegan). To me that is far more precious than the end of feeling there is a self anywhere in experience. But I think there must be a connection.
June 13 at 3:31am · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata But yes, I really like ChNN, and have benefited from his books. So the next time he has a retreat in a country close to mine, I will go.
June 13 at 3:33am · Like
Robert Dominik Well I watched my first webcast thanks to a discussion with Malcolm in Dharma Connection It was surely very beneficial and then after a few months I went to see him live. Since that moment things were just going better
June 13 at 3:33am · Like
Yor Sunyata Question. Is it possible to receive all needed transmissions at once?
June 13 at 3:34am · Like
Robert Dominik One full retreat (which means one full set of webcasts) is enough to get everything needed for practising Dzogchen. You get symbollic transmission, oral instructions, Direct Introduction - everything you need to start. Also at the end of every retreat (the last day) Rinpoche gives lungs for secondary practices It might be of interest to you that Rinpoche also gives lung for a practice connected to Avalokitesvara (haha won't say more until you get the lung xD) I suggest making notes of what lungs you receive and then asking other practitioners about these techniques. Anyway If I'm not mistaken the next retreat begins on 20th June and lasts till 28th
June 13 at 3:38am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata Cool Looking forward to it
June 13 at 3:39am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik A good book to acquire after getting DI is in my opinion Precious Vase. It contains all the basics that are important in Rinpoche's opinion for people who want to seriously follow Dzogchen teachings (even if they are not interested in taking SMS course).
June 13 at 3:42am · Like
Yor Sunyata Can't find it on Amazon, Robert.
June 13 at 3:45am · Like
Robert Dominik You can find the books of Dzogchen Community in the Shang Shung Institute store http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.php?l=product_detail...
e-book The Precious Vase (English PDF ebook)
www.shangshungstore.org
The Precious Vase
June 13 at 3:50am · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Yor Sunyata It is restriced, and so I would have to lie to get it. Cannot do that, although I have felt a certain temptation in the past
June 13 at 3:51am · Like
Robert Dominik Well if it's restricted, then it means it's for people with DI
June 13 at 3:54am · Edited · Like
Yor Sunyata Anzelle, it is a restricted text. It says so in the description. I will download it once I am allowed to. I don't think lying in order to obtain a restricted text in any way will be conducive to spiritual growth. Besides, my bookshelf and Kindle-reader is filled with a huge amount of wonderful books that are not restricted.
June 13 at 3:57am · Like · 2
Yor Sunyata Home » RESTRICTED SHOP» Restricted ebooks in English
June 13 at 4:01am · Like · 1
Yor Sunyata And also: "Please click here to learn more about restricted ebooks."
June 13 at 4:01am · Like
Yor Sunyata I have tried put them in the cart from that shop before. Before you check out, you need to state that you have received the required empowerments and transmissions to read it, and that you are a member. I couldn't bring myself to do that, since it isn't true, however much I would like it to be.
June 13 at 4:03am · Like
Robert Dominik Well no worries. If you watch the next webcast you will meet the most important requirement soon enough.
June 13 at 4:18am · Like
David Boulter To get DI do you have to watch a webcast live or can you watch a recording?
June 13 at 5:33am · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Also when is the next one?
June 13 at 5:37am · Like
Stuffs RedTurtle http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/worldwidetransmissions/
Tsegyalgar - The International Dzogchen Community in North America - World-Wide Transmissions
tsegyalgar.org
The International Dzogchen Community in North America
June 13 at 5:39am · Like · Remove Preview
Robert Dominik 20 - 28 June I think - retreat in Russia. Not sure 100% because there was supposed to be a retreat on Crimea but it was probably canceled, because of the situation there.
June 13 at 5:40am · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle That answered my question, still looks like you need to contact them for permission
June 13 at 5:40am · Like
Robert Dominik The webcast has to be live. You can also get a DI via telephone. The most important requirement is that you and Master are doing this together at the same time. There can be slight delay though - like 5-10 seconds - it isn't a problem because the DI still goes on when you start doing it. Afterall webcasts have some lags and delays - like one second or two seconds. But a video recording doesn't have that function.
June 13 at 5:42am · Edited · Like · 2
Robert Dominik Of course going to a retreat personally is the best option but a Direct Introduction with an online webcast is enough to start and do practices. The same thing is with lungs for some secondary practices.
June 13 at 5:43am · Like · 1
David Boulter Thanks, Robert.
June 13 at 5:45am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php <- Soon there should be information about the next webcast here. Also you watch webcasts here and might get files related to webcasts here.
DC Webcast
www.shangshunginstitute.net
Introduction about this retreat teaching, transmission of Ati Guru Yoga and Short Gana Puja,Then Short Gana Puja for the day of Dhakini.
June 13 at 5:47am · Like · Remove Preview
Stuffs RedTurtle Says aug 5th at 11 pm. I will make sure to call them. Do I have to ask my teacher first? Would that be an sign of disrespect?
June 13 at 5:47am · Like
Robert Dominik Aug 5th is WWT. This is a like kind of a special event for the newcomers. It is just a short practice - powerful but to my knowledge WWT is often done without mentioned lungs, explanations that are given during regular webcasts etc. I recommend it but you can and should watch regular webcasts. The most important thing is that the webcast schedule should mention things like Direct Introduction, Transmission of Ati Guru Yoga, Ati Direct Transmission. For example if you use the link I provided then there will be the schedule of the last webcast - watching it was enough to start.
June 13 at 5:58am · Edited · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Thanks Robert
June 13 at 5:54am · Like · 1
Robert Dominik "Do I have to ask my teacher first? Would that be an sign of disrespect?" <- Well that depends on your relationship with your teacher. Surely you can talk to him - it is nice if he knows what are you up it with your practice etc. But of course people often have more than one teacher, so I guess this isn't a problem. Probably you just do both things and try not mix the practices (like comming up with your own cross-practises xD) but do both things with respect to them on their own. Though this is something you should figure out as an individual on your own. CHNNR is a great teacher but one could argue that having a personal relationship with a teacher is much better than following webcasts and books - even if done by a great master. Depends on what do you feel, how much time do you have etc. Either way I don't see how watching webcasts from one full retreat with CHNNR and getting DI would be harmful. The only bad thing that can happen is if you get lots of empowerments and instructions but then do nothing with them. But if you meditate, develop bodhichitta, work on your compassion and generally do your best, then it's great
June 13 at 6:02am · Edited · Like · 1
Stuffs RedTurtle Cool, I doubt he would mind anyway he is very casual. I'm glad to hear this because I have been wanting to return to Chenrezig center to learn the Lam Rim from Rinpoche Geshe Wendak he taught at dhamasala for 14 years, would be a poor opportunity to miss. I felt very at home there but only attended a few Tara pujas and one lam rim teaching when I had my first weird thing go on, but I was too afraid to ask him directly so I talked to other students instead. Oddly lol, I'm pretty sure he literally read my mind, which is a weird thing to say I know, but I was sitting quietly before puja and had some thoughts going on, when I looked up he was looking at me and then noticed I was surprised to see him doing so and then addressed the room about the same thing I was thinking, too weird a coincidence, and it freaked me out so much I didn't go back ha ha. Maybe I am just superstitious, but it was odd
June 13 at 6:09am · Edited · Like · 3
Stuffs RedTurtle Still ever since it freaks me out very much that this stuff might be possible. One thing to hear it claimed on inet and another to sit infront of teachers who may have these weird abilities
June 13 at 6:20am · Like
Anzelle Pieretti A good Guru will know your mind better than you know it yourself. It goes with the territory. It's a great thing when a Lama has that kind of connection to your mind, rejoice. So many ppl come on the path wishing for that kind of connection. Not everyone has this experience.
June 13 at 6:42am · Like · 3
Stuffs RedTurtle Oh cool I should def go back then
June 13 at 6:49am · Like · 2
Anzelle Pieretti Oh yes indeed
June 13 at 6:50am · Like · 1
Anzelle Pieretti Gyatrul Rinpoche always told us to be weary of teachers who forbid you to go to anyone else. A true teacher is going to let you fall down, make your own mistakes and be there to point you in the right direction when you do.
June 13 at 6:53am · Like · 6
Stuffs RedTurtle Oddly this is the first place I found when looking for a buddhist center too they just told me such weird things at the time I couldn't accept. Some of them are easier now. So cool thanks for the advice Anzelle
June 13 at 6:55am · Like · 4
Soh
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